Thursday, January 23, 2014


[19:08] <~Dan> Okay, folks! I'm going to start the discussion and open the floor to questions in the audience room!
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[19:08] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> LOL! No way Jonathan. :)
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[19:08] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> people have been banned?
[19:08] * +BenRogers <-- banned by RPGnet (yet I still advertised with them, go figure)
[19:09] <+LeeGarvin> Yay! Structure!
[19:09] *** Jeff is now known as JeffCombos
[19:09] <+Jamie> I've never been banned but I was certainly chased away fearing tarring and feathering.
[19:09] * +ToddDowning is shocked.
[19:09] <+TimKirk> I've never been banned.
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[19:09] * +Tim_Dugger sits back to watch Dan's experiment of "Attempting to herd cats"
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[19:09] <+JasonMHardy> I'd have to participate more to have a chance to be banned.
[19:09] <+JamesSutton> Hrm. The Jason/Shane/Tim to other First Name ratio seems skewed.
[19:09] <+TimKirk> Then again I'm about offensive as a mild pumpkin pie.
[19:09] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I wouldn't avoid anyone. :D
[19:09] <@Abstruse> Our first question: <Yog_Sothoth> How is everyone today?
[19:09] <+LynneH> I was barred from a pub once for laughing too much when I found out the Landlord was a Morris Dancer
[19:09] <+JasonMHardy> Jasons own the internet. Change your name now, avoid the rush.
[19:09] <+BenRogers> I'm fantastic! :)
[19:09] <+LeeGarvin> I was banned on UseNet, in the LongLongago, in the BeforeTime.
[19:09] <+JMThompson_BPI> Ive never been banned either. Of course I keep from saying what I really think.
[19:09] <+Ken_Spencer> Cold for the most part.
[19:09] <+JasonLBlair> I'm doing well!
[19:09] <+JasonHolmgren> I'm still high from Further Confusion, where we sold out of our latest game, MYRIAD SONG. =D
[19:09] <+BrentNewhall> Yeah, I don't really participate at because of the level of toxicity.
[19:09] <+ToddDowning> Crazed and busy with things.
[19:09] <+RafaelChandler> I'm not allowed to go back to the Wendy's on Maple Drive, but I'm pretty sure that's not my fault.
[19:09] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I'm doing great now. :)
[19:10] <+ian_stewart> I've... Never been banned from anywhere, to my knowledge.
[19:10] <+JasonMHardy> Doin' pretty well.
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[19:10] <+NathanRMaher> I'm amazing.
[19:10] <+TimKirk> I'm alright. Just chilling. Working on writing stuff as I can
[19:10] <+margaretweis> My books have been banned!
[19:10] <+LynneH> Not too bad, thank you Darryl - bit sleepy ;)
[19:10] <+TGlennBane> Pretty happy, just got a load of World of Pulp books in.
[19:10] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> I'm in Ohio - it's not even 0 degrees, but excited to be here.
[19:10] <+Rpgpundit> Ben, I'll take this moment to mention that I'm currently writing up the review for your game.  So there you have it folks, self-declared occultist RPGPundit will soon be posting a review of overtly-Christian Sixcess Core.  Stay tuned and check out my blog.
[19:10] <+JMThompson_BPI> Im doing well, though it is snowing ... really weird weather we are having. Yesterday it was 60 degrees F
[19:10] <+Jamie> My daughter's school caught fire yesterday, but other than that I'm fine.
[19:10] <+TRA-Preston> Would be better if DriveThru would hurry up.
[19:10] <+DavidFChapman> Sleepy, it's 1am in the UK!! And finding it hard to type with a cat sat on me!
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[19:10] <+JasonLBlair> You're not allowed to do that in the chili, Rafael. You know that.
[19:10] <@Abstruse> (By the way, the name in <Brackets> will be the name of the person who asked the question)
[19:10] <+TimKirk> Not good, is everyon ok Jamie?
[19:10] <+RafaelChandler> True story, one of my video games was banned in North Korea and Kim Jong-Il threatened my team with death.
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[19:10] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Chili? Who's got chili? ;)
[19:10] *** Dan sets mode +v GeorgeVasilakos
[19:10] <+Jamie> Yeah, no one was hurt.
[19:10] <~Dan> Welcome, George!
[19:10] <+TimKirk> I ate mine already Cinthia...
[19:11] <+ian_stewart> It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.
[19:11] <+TimKirk> Cynthia.
[19:11] <+JamesSutton> Yay Ohio! And the answer to the question? 42.
[19:11] <+TimKirk> Whee
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[19:11] <+Jamie> Hey George (and everyone else).
[19:11] <+ToddDowning> 'Sup George?
[19:11] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Holy cow, Jamie. :(
[19:11] <+JasonMHardy> @Rafael: Get Rodman to work it all out for you.
[19:11] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> RafaelChandler: which game?
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[19:11] <+LynneH> I feel your pain, David ;)
[19:11] <+GeorgeVasilakos> Hello all
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[19:11] <+TRA-Preston> Rafael that sounds like a compliment really.
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[19:11] <+RafaelChandler> Ghost Recon 2 -- "This may be just a game to them now, but a war will not be a game for them later. In war, they will only face miserable defeat and gruesome deaths.”
[19:11] <+TimKirk> Allo GeorgeVasilakos
[19:11] <+Tim_Dugger> howdy George
[19:11] <+DavidFChapman> Hi George!!
[19:11] <~Dan> Question from Yog-Sothoth: "How much do you feel the political climate of the 10's has influenced your design process?"
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[19:11] * +BenRogers Our "overtly Christian" book is being reviewed by an occultist!  Hot damn!  (Should I mention it was laid out by a lesbian atheist?)
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[19:12] <+GeorgeVasilakos> Sorry Im late... would be like Eden Studios if I wasnt late :P
[19:12] <+Rpgpundit> Margaret Weis, since I've got you here, and with my interest in religion, I thought I'd pose a question: I know of Tracy Hickman's Mormon faith; are you also LDS?
[19:12] <+ShaneIveyofArcDream> Dan, is Yog's question for everyone or someone in particular?
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[19:12] <+BenRogers> Dan, no influence other than the shitty economy....
[19:12] <+ChrisRutkowsky> Was that question for all of us, or for just one person?
[19:12] <+Tim_Dugger> Response to Yog-Sothoth -- none at all, I try to avoid politics on general principle...
[19:12] <+JMThompson_BPI> Not really at all for me, its not a factor in our design. Since we tend to stick to Historical/Alt history and Alt. Future material.
[19:12] <~Dan> Everyone, sorry, Shane.
[19:12] <+LynneH> Does Yog-Sothoth blast our Sanity if we don;t give him an answer he likes? :)
[19:12] <+ChrisRutkowsky> My reply would be "not one iota"
[19:12] <+Rpgpundit> And if not, was there any issue with the underlying Mormon themes in Dragonlance?
[19:12] <+TimKirk> I'm not influenced much by politics, mostly because I try and right stuff with a lot of optimism (even if dark and brooding)
[19:12] <+margaretweis> No, I'm currently undecided.
[19:12] <+ToddDowning> None.
[19:12] <+JasonHolmgren> @Yog-Sothoth: our games have always been inclusive to lots of different people. It's a testament to how neutral our language is by how no one's noticed. :D
[19:12] <+TimKirk> write *facepalms*
[19:12] <+JasonLBlair> RE: Politics: None at all.
[19:13] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> For me, the political climate hasn't influenced my game design. Given that we focus entirely on genre emulation, it puts me in a very different mindset. I have to concern myself with the political climate of the time period of the genre we're seeking to emulate.
[19:13] <+RafaelChandler> To answer the question -- my upcoming game, Lacerations of the Slain Priestess, is a modern-day dungeon crawl where you attack office buildings, kill CEOs, and take their money.
[19:13] <+ian_stewart> Well, in my case, it kind of made me feel less reserved about openly non heterosexual pairings, even if my personal leanings are pretty boring.
[19:13] <+JasonMHardy> Hmmm … good question. Shadowrun has always been better at reflecting the present than predicting the future, so I'd say we can't help put have the present seep into the setting.
[19:13] <+TGlennBane> It has not. I have always been an idie publisher. I am not that concerned with pop-polotics. I just produce what I like and hopefully other people will too.
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[19:13] <+TRA-Preston> Yog-Sothoth Well my setting has a civil war happening in just a few years, so I guess I'd say it inflenced it alot
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[19:13] <+LeeGarvin> Actually, Yog, it was a huge part of a game I wrote a few years ago and sold, but has never been published. I have bought the rights back, and hopefully can re-tool it someday soon.
[19:13] <+JasonHolmgren> I would like to make a more politically-themed game. I don't know if anyone remembers our "Covert Action" project that fizzed in the mid 2000s.
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[19:13] <@Abstruse> Please try to keep the language family friendly, ladies and gentlemen.
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[19:13] <+Ken_Spencer> On political climate: with Rocket Age I have tried to stress the effects of colonialism, as well as highlight the problems with occupying foreign nations. LGBT issues are also being introduced and explored. <done>
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[19:13] <+Jamie> I think how we feel about issues affects stuff we write about ... but honestly I can't say the card games and RPGs have been delightfully free of political influence.
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[19:13] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> Rpgpundit: I'm actually an episcopal priest if you share an interest in religion. All my seminary education helped greatly for finding citations to all the mythological aspects to my game.
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[19:14] <+Jamie> Culture and language have had a big effect on me, however, and slipped into a card game I'm announcing in the next few months.
[19:14] <+BrentNewhall> Zeke_ClockworkDominion: Cool!
[19:14] <+Rpgpundit> Sorry Zeke, which games are those? Your username doesn't immediately register to me
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[19:14] <+NathanRMaher> To Yog-Sothoth - The political climate hasn't influenced our current design.  I like to look back as opposed to forward for games.
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[19:14] <+JMThompson_BPI> Though I will admit that we are all influenced by our upbringing and personal beliefs, so I am sure some of that seeps in now and again.
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[19:14] <+TimKirk> Oh wait--there is a kind of politics I try and include. One of equality of gender, race, culture, faith, and so on.
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[19:14] <+ShaneIveyofArcDream> The political climate doesn't affect us much at all, but political events and priorities do. I'm spearheading a new DELTA GREEN roleplaying game. That's about federal agents and counterterrorism operators investigating cosmic horrors and getting in way over their heads. Daily controversies from the NSA and US special operations practices are gold.
[19:14] <+TGlennBane> Of course Rotwang City is set in the Great Depression with the explosion of radio sciences. There are a lot of similarities to present day economic turbulance plus internet explosion.
[19:14] <+ToddDowning> Good point, Tim.  I would echo that as well.
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[19:15] <+margaretweis> Can't escape politics in Firefly.
[19:15] <+Jamie> Oh there you are, Andy.
[19:15] <+DavidFChapman> Sorry, logged myself out there for a moment...
[19:15] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Rotwang City sounds right up my alley.
[19:15] <+Rpgpundit> Politics in the RPG hobby are always amusing; it seems that all the leftists tend to think I'm a right-wing monster, and right-wingers tend to accuse me of being a liberal hippie.
[19:15] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> Rpgpundit: I'm pretty new to the industry. we just kickstarted our first game Clockwork:Dominion. It did really well, and has a bit of buzz, I guess. It's pretty humbling.
[19:15] <+TimKirk> Can't wait to see it myself Zeke.
[19:15] <+BrentNewhall> Zeke_ClockworkDominion: Best of luck!
[19:15] <+BenRogers> Pundit, as a Libertarian, I mock both the left and the right. ;)
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[19:15] <@Abstruse> QUESTION from Jojo-the-monkey everybody: I'm curious what kind of jobs you all have, jobs that pay the bills that is
[19:15] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> Rpgpundit: I get the same reaction actually.
[19:15] <+margaretweis> i write books
[19:15] <+Jamie> ANNOUNCEMENT: I stole Andy Hopp's hotel bartender for his convention and now I'm going to marry her.
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[19:15] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> BrentNewhall: thanks.
[19:16] <+Jamie> And I'm not sorry.
[19:16] <+Rpgpundit> Good stuff, Zeke. If its not a storygame, you should come talk about it on theRPGsite!  we have the best signal-to-noise ratio.  If it is a storygame, you can talk about it too, we have a forum for that.
[19:16] <+RafaelChandler> I write video games, Jojo. Worked for Sony, Warner Brothers, Ubisoft, etc.
[19:16] <+JasonHolmgren> @Jojo-the-monkey , that's two questions. I'm a teacher. That doesn't pay the bills. ;)
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[19:16] <+LynneH> I try to avoid politics, if possible, unless it's critical for a setting
[19:16] <+BenRogers> I am a Product Manager for New Software Development and I sell knives, swords and the occasional firearm at gun shows most weekends.
[19:16] <+JasonMHardy> I'm a full-time RPG guy.
[19:16] <+BenRogers> So, I'm a software maker and a weapon dealer. :)
[19:16] <+BrentNewhall> I work for Amazon.
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[19:16] <+JMThompson_BPI> Im a teacher. And Jason is right... doesnt really pay the bills, but its a good job :D
[19:16] <+JasonLBlair> I'm an in-house writer at Volition, the designers of the Saints Row series. Most recently I wrote for Saints Row IV.
[19:16] <+DavidFChapman> @Jojothemonkey - boring day job working in a shop selling DVDs and t-shirts.
[19:16] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> And Ben's a full-on merc. I've hired him to bring enemies to me. He's great! ;)
[19:16] <+Rpgpundit> I was amused by the confused reactions of certain pseudo-activists who hate me on principle when I published the first RPG I know of to feature a transgendered character on the cover.
[19:16] <+GeorgeVasilakos> Eden Studios pays my bills - so does my game store I own.
[19:16] <+TimKirk> technically disabled. I am trying the work thing, but the system here (in Texas) isn't designed to help me one whit.
[19:16] <+ToddDowning> Freelance/contract graphic design, illustration, layout.  I also book a fair amount of voiceover work for the Seattle market.
[19:16] <+ChrisRutkowsky> I teach History
[19:17] <+Ken_Spencer> Re: Jobs I am a stay at home dad and a part time educator. The wife pays the bills and my income covers emergencies and if all goes well luxuries.
[19:17] <+PEGShane> I'm a full-timer. I was an Exec Producer in video games for a few years but greatly prefer this.
[19:17] <+ian_stewart> Right now? The New Horizon RPG is my job. I have a lot of trouble holding down a regular job, having aspergers makes interactions with others kind of tricky.
[19:17] <@Abstruse> I work in Software QA, if anyone cares...
[19:17] <+Tim_Dugger> @JoJo -- I actually work from home - for a 3rd party company contracted to provie support for iOS devices (i.e. I work for KellyConnect doing telephone tech support for Apple products)
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[19:17] <+LynneH> Jojo - I'm a full-time freelance games writer & educator
[19:17] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I do Spectrum Games full time.
[19:17] <+Jamie> Me, I do the games and writing thing and help manage the office building my company is located in on the side, along with doing their website and tech work.
[19:17] <+TGlennBane> I am a freelance graphic designer/illustrator. I also work in security.
[19:17] <+JeffCombos> With Hollow Earth Expedition, you're playing heroes in a time period that was not pleasant to women and minorities. So I ended up shifting the game into an alternate history where those things were less prevalent. That way the game would resonate with our more modern sensibilities.
[19:17] <+NathanRMaher> (Spooks! wttgb) Jojo-the-monkey, I work for the banking industry and perform loan modifications on FHA mortgages.  My wife just went part-time to dedicate more time to her self-employed business as a costume designer.
[19:17] <+BenRogers> CCM!  Chill on the merc stuff!  NSA is still hounding my ass...  Oh, wait, I'm American... that's true of all of us...
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[19:17] <+LeeGarvin> Jojo, I'm recently resigned from a retail management job, and I'm living off of my savings while I try to build my brand (although recent medical expenses may cause that build-up time to be truncated).
[19:17] * +TRA-Preston is having trouble reading everything, and is surprised Dan and Abstruse can keep up.
[19:17] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> LOL @ Ben
[19:17] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> As I said, I'm actually an Episcopal Priest. The other guys on my game are teachers, and a property organizer.
[19:17] <+Rpgpundit> Jojo: I'm a wizard.
[19:17] <+BenRogers> CCM, you need to mention your band and your deathmetal tours. :)
[19:17] <+JamesSutton> I work in ecom merce integration for HSNi.
[19:17] <~Dan> Question: <Taurevanime> Question: What are you doing to get new people, especially those of a younger age into RPGs and table top gaming in general?
[19:17] <@Abstruse> TRA-Preston: I'm used to it. I read fast and I used to work data entry so I type pretty fast.
[19:18] <+BrettMBernstein> Precis Intermedia is my full-time lover :)
[19:18] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Yes, I'm the drummer for Eminent Remains.
[19:18] <+PEGShane> Making games that aren't so damn complicated. ;)
[19:18] <+TimKirk> Teach them, Taurevanime. Teach them. The big thing you have to do is welcome in an audience and be willing to teach them the games you play, or want to.
[19:18] <+JMThompson_BPI> I got new younger gamers the old fashion way....I got married and had a child :D
[19:18] <+BrentNewhall> Great question! The game I just Kickstarted, The Whispering Road, was inspired by Hayao Miyazaki movies and uses that aesthetic as a way to draw in younger players and those who aren't traditionally role-players.
[19:18] <+JasonHolmgren> @Taurevanime , there's still a big audience for tabletop games, but a modern designer has to compete with computers and other media.  I'll echo PEGShane that the games need to be less complex and more accessible.
[19:18] <+LynneH> Good answer PEGShane!
[19:18] <+ChrisRutkowsky> I have been thinking about a "Gifted Youngsters Edition" of BASH! for a while, since the original BASH! was conceived as a game for kids
[19:18] <+Jamie> My focus with my company has been to produce games with really easy entry points. Card games that you can learn quickly and RPG rules that can be taught in ten minutes.
[19:18] <+ian_stewart> I've been giving away sandwich bags of cocaine as door prizes when we do play tests. ...Well, pizza. That's like cocaine for most players.
[19:19] <+BrentNewhall> It's also ideal for the anime crowd.
[19:19] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> Simpler games - but I also grab people at cons and sit down with them to play. A little invitation goes a long way.
[19:19] <+RafaelChandler> @Taurevanime -- None of the people in my gaming group (7 of them) played RPGs before they started hanging out with me. I've converted quite a few people in my time.
[19:19] <+BenRogers> We're producing a "school year calendar" with all the gaming and gaming-related cons listed and handing it out for free at all the conventions we attend to encourage people to participate in the gaming world.
[19:19] <+JasonMHardy> Tarevanime: We hope video games like Shadowrun Returns and Shadowrun Online will help with that, especially as we tie them together. We also have a beginner box set coming soon that should make it easier for people to learn how to play.
[19:19] <+TimKirk> I've taught more newbies than I care to mention with superhero games. I even started a D&D game for a friend's sons. He's a gamer but he asked me to run them, because he knows I'm good at what I do.
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[19:19] <+JasonHolmgren> Oh, and more diverse subject matter would be nice, too.  I'd really like to hear from Margaret Weis on that one, since her company aggressively licenses IPs.
[19:19] <+Tim_Dugger> Echoing PEGShane -- keeping my game as simple as I can, and as affordable...
[19:19] <+Jamie> I'm also playing with new media ... videos that introduce game ideas and fun tie-ins.
[19:19] <+Ken_Spencer> Re; New People into the Hobby: I run my playtests at the FLGS, Legends Games and Hobby, and we are working on getting an open rpg day going there. Mostly I try to provide a welcoming environment in a public venue.
[19:19] <+ShaneIveyofArcDream> We published a game called "Monsters and Other Childish Things" that got a great response from kids. It's been run tons of times in schools and at cons for families. It's really fun to see newcomers get thrilled to making stuff up and rolling dice.
[19:19] <+TGlennBane> I do events at local gaming shops and support local sci-fi and fantasy book clubs. I openly invite people with families to participate in my game at events.
[19:19] <+ToddDowning> 1PG line - rules so easy you can play with a head wound.
[19:19] <+LynneH> Currently trying to help new local businesses set up game nights and mini-cons to get new people in through the doors
[19:19] <+GeorgeVasilakos> Good question Taurevanime... as a game store owner - the #1 thing I see is older gamers who want to get their kids into RPG gaming. There are not alot of "INTRO"-level games out there - that is why we are Eden Studios are working on a new RPG designed for kids called ADventure Maximus.
[19:19] <+JMThompson_BPI> Half of my current group is made up of gamers between 18 and 25, the other half are all over 35
[19:19] <+NathanRMaher> (Spooks! wttgb) Taurevanime - Outside of advertising, the game that I'm designing is aimed specifcally at a younger group.  Simple rules, undead characters, playing cards.  The idea of the game, like I had when I was younger,is aimed to education (sneakily) and be amazingly fun.
[19:19] <+DavidFChapman> Yeah, we're working on a Starter set for Doctor Who that'll be super easy for instant pick up and learn.
[19:19] <+BenRogers> We're also encouraging college and high school students to freelance for us.
[19:19] <+Rpgpundit> Taurevanime: The honest answer? No small press publisher can do much about that.  Much less an individual rpg writer.  Only individual gaming groups can do that, by reaching out to younger players; and of course Wizards or Paizo can do that because they have the money for it.
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[19:19] <+ian_stewart> Part of our strategy is going to be a lot of useful server software, such as character creation, loot generation and other automation.
[19:20] <@Abstruse> <FlipperBuzzbomb> Q for the panel: Is the contraction of brick and mortar (or what seems like contraction to me) and the seeming ease of electronic and print-to-order distribution a good thing for your work, or something that can be a struggle?
[19:20] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Taurevanime: We try to pay extra close attention to the introductory chapter of our RPGs, making sure that they are good for helping new folks out. We've also been offering a whole chapter dedicated to player advice. This seems to help, according to the feedback we've gotten.
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[19:20] <+margaretweis> I think the game store owner does the heavy lifting in the area of bringing young people into the industry.
[19:20] <+andyhopp> Hello friends. Sorry i'm late
[19:20] <+GeorgeVasilakos> but the problem with making an intro level game is getting it INTO the hands of the parents that will buy it for the kids
[19:20] <@Abstruse> <FlipperBuzzbomb> Q for the panel: Is the contraction of brick and mortar (or what seems like contraction to me) and the seeming ease of electronic and print-to-order distribution a good thing for your work, or something that can be a struggle?
[19:20] <+JasonMHardy> CynthiaCelesteMiller is right that player and game master advice is a good idea.
[19:20] <+TGlennBane> Later this year, Scaldcrow Games's demo groups Crow Crew and Crow Kids will both be getting a launch.
[19:20] <+TimKirk> Struggle. Let's be honest, your brick and mortar stores are built upon things like Magic, Pathfinder, and Warhammer.
[19:20] <+Jamie> Bought time you got here, Andy. Nikki is shaking her head in disapproval.
[19:20] <@Abstruse> (Yeah, not trying the color thing again...)
[19:20] * +JasonMHardy shuns andyhopp for being criminally late.
[19:20] <+JasonLBlair> I don't do anything when it comes to marketing or outreach but I design my games to be accessible and try to write them from a teaching the game perspective.
[19:20] <+GeorgeVasilakos> so any publisher can make a great game, but getting it to the end user is the problem.
[19:20] <+BrentNewhall> The rise of digital and POD is good for me, as I couldn't afford to get into the brick-and-mortar side.
[19:20] <+JasonHolmgren> @Flipperbuzzbomb - the contraction of brick-and-mortar is regrettable.  GAMA needs to do more to help small business, and something needs to be done about Diamond/Alliance's customer-unfriendly tactics.
[19:20] <+LeeGarvin> The main thing I think we can do to bring new players in is to support your FLGS, Run demos, tournaments, events, clinics, anything that can get fresh eyeballs on games.
[19:21] <+JMThompson_BPI> I will second Arc Dreams' Monsters... I love the game and I think its a great introductory game.
[19:21] <+BenRogers> Contraction of brick and mortar stores is a crying shame. It's a game changer for the industry.
[19:21] <+andyhopp> I'll give myself a wedgie in shame
[19:21] <+TimKirk> The electronic media is great for me, however.
[19:21] <+Tim_Dugger> for smaller publishers -- the internet is a very helpful venue
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[19:21] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> @ FlipperBuzzbomb - I'm not sure we'd have been able to afford to make our game if it weren't for POD. Frankly, Kickstarter played a big role too.
[19:21] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> POD has been a real life saver for Spectrum.
[19:21] <+RafaelChandler> The contraction of brick and mortar hasn't affected me; PDF and POD make it possible for me to publish my RPG work.
[19:21] <+JasonMHardy> Tough question, FlipperBuzzbomb. There are good points to the ease of electronic publishing, in that lots of people can experiment and get things out, but brick-and-mortar stores are an important part of the hobby.
[19:21] <+Rpgpundit> brick and mortar game stores are increasingly irrelevant. that's just reality.  Its up to the hobby to adapt to that.
[19:21] <+ian_stewart> I know people who own B&M locations, but printers are a royal pain in the butt. Online sales have always been easiest for me.
[19:21] <+margaretweis> Return of book stores to the malls would help.
[19:22] <~Dan> QUESTION:  <ErrantShade> General question: As game designers, how has crowdsourcing effected your industry for better and worse?
[19:22] <+JeffCombos> I sell books electronically and through brick and mortar stores, so any way I can get my games to customers is good for me. But it's a lot harder to make money through distribution unless you have volume and that can make it a problem for a lot of small publishers.
[19:22] <+TGlennBane> It opened up the industryy for a lot of creative voices that may not have been in a position to pursue game design and fiction, otherwise.
[19:22] <+JasonMHardy> The stores are gathering points, outreach areas, and places people can browse.
[19:22] <+TimKirk> I love my brick and mortar the way
[19:22] <+Jamie> I went full-time in the game industry 2001 and things have been in a constant state of flux. I think game stores have a very important role to play but the new ways to get games (and even create them) are additional opportunities for both publishers and gamers.
[19:22] <+LeeGarvin> E-publishing is great, but it's a bit insular: only folks who already know about it are going to see it. To grow the hobby, you've got to get people in real life to see your stuff.
[19:22] <+BenRogers> Margaret, malls surviving would help!
[19:22] <+NathanRMaher> (Spooks! wttgb) FlipperBuzzbomb - it depends, I enjoy going to brick and motar stores to purchase my books but I find as an independent game designer that there is a lot of risk having them house product on your own tab because if something is stolen then you're out while online sales there is little to no risk.
[19:22] <+ChrisRutkowsky> If it weren't for Rpgnow and similar sites, I never would have gotten a product into a brick and mortar store.  That said, I support FLGS whenever I can.  If you buy a hardcopy from an FLGS you get a PDF.
[19:22] <+Ken_Spencer> The loss of brick and mortar is lamentable, but to go forward as a hobby and industry we need to find alternate means of getting not just product, but knowledge about what role-playing is out to a wider audience.
[19:22] <+BrettMBernstein> The majority of my business is PDF, with print items and retailer support secondary. That's how it's been from the beginning.
[19:22] <+JMThompson_BPI> It has allowed me to publish games that otherwise would have never gotten out the door. Its been a handy tool.
[19:22] <+JasonLBlair> I was able to publish STREETS OF BEDLAM thanks to the Kickstarter run. Well that and @PEGShane trusting me not to pee in his pool.
[19:22] <+TimKirk> Crowdfunding is a HUGE thing. Its very awesome because I've seen it turn games that might get some people few sales into profitable things. (I've not used it yet, with that caveat.)
[19:22] <+Rpgpundit> errantshade: I haven't done a kickstarter for a game of my own, however I have worked as a Consultant for Raiders of R'lyeh, which ran a very successful kickstarter last year. On the whole, its one step toward the future of not just RPGs but the book industry in general.
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[19:22] <+BrentNewhall> Crowdsourcing allows for certain things that just can't be boostrapped. My Kickstarter funded a batch of high-quality art for the rule book, for example.
[19:23] <+Tim_Dugger> personally, I have stayed away from crowdsourcing, mostly because I am of the opinion that I will not make any promises that I cannot keep, and I am not going to ask folks for money for somehting that I haven't written yet
[19:23] <+Jamie> I think retail in general is changing, but our industry and audience are on the high side of the tech curve so it's ahead of the more mainstream products.
[19:23] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> @ ErrantShade - Kickstarter IS the reason our game was made. We actually had no idea how well received we would be until our Kickstarter exploded. Without that initial money, we'd never have survived.
[19:23] <+JasonMHardy> ErrantShade: Crowdsourcing is great for gathering information, getting good feedback, and building communities. It can be over-relied on, though, for design, IMO.
[19:23] <+TRA-Preston> ErrantShade I think crowdsourcing has allow a ton of new games to be made (especially mine), and the greater variety can only be a good thing.
[19:23] <+BrentNewhall> (arg, crowdfunding)
[19:23] <+JasonHolmgren> @Errantshade, if you mean 'crowd-sourcing' as in 'large crowds writing and producing content', while it has proven that it floats all boats higher (with things like d20)... as a creator, it bothers me when people are exploited to create content for free.
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[19:23] <+Jamie> Amazon is already trying to read our minds and predict our behavior to pre-ship anticipated future-orders.
[19:23] <+NathanRMaher> (Spooks! wttgb) ErrantShade - I couldn't have been successful without crowd funding.  I'm sure like the novel it is making it easier for ideas to get out there, time will tell how it will influence the gaming industry.  I for one am greatful and blown away by people's charitable donations.
[19:23] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> ErrantShade: Crowd sourcing has done for RPGs what POD had done shortly before. It opened up a lot of doors for those looking to produce high-quality products without breaking their own bank account into tiny pieces. Huge, huge deal.
[19:23] <+JeffCombos> Crowdsourcing has been a boon for the industry, I think, as it has allowed creators to get their games directly to customers. But the problem is that there are a lot of Kickstarter projects now, and it is becoming increasingly hard to get mindshare for new games.
[19:23] <+PEGShane> Kickstarter has been great from a *marketing* point of view. There is no central source anywhere on the web for people to find out where our products exist. KS isn't that either, but it's a HUGE audience who can find out about your products. And of course *it* wouldn't be successful without the rise of social media (FB in particular).
[19:23] <+JasonLBlair> Kickstarter also allowed me to put out a third big book for LITTLE FEARS NIGHTMARE EDITION. So, in my little world, it's helped a lot.
[19:23] <+GeorgeVasilakos> Crowdfunding allows us to get the books made. But you have to be careful about pissing off retailers. Crowdfunding is good for front end sales but your longevity will be with retailer support.
[19:23] <+LynneH> Crowdsourcing has meant that Achtung! Cthulhu is amazingly pretty and full colour (and has way more books than we ever expected)
[19:23] <+TGlennBane> Kickstarter allowed me to gain some exposure, and financial backing from new sources.
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[19:23] <+Peregrine> Hi guys, just arrived, what did I miss and am I in the right place? :)
[19:23] <+BrettMBernstein> I am not a fan of crowd funding. I prefer to produce materials without being beholden to investors.
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[19:24] <+JasonHolmgren> Some publishers have dozens of people write tens of thousands of words on spec, and then cherry pick the 'acceptable' ones, and it's led to some terrible product and some people doing a lot of work while others reap the rewards.
[19:24] <+LynneH> Is that you Andy?
[19:24] <+TGlennBane> I produced five products this year thanks to Kickstarter.
[19:24] <+JasonHolmgren> If you mean 'crowd-funding' ... crowdfunding is awesome. =D
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[19:24] <+BrentNewhall> I do worry that crowdfunding has created a new expectation that indie books have to look as good as traditional published books.
[19:24] <~Dan> Peregrine: You are! Abstruse and I are bringing in questions from the audience. :)
[19:24] <+Peregrine> It is me Lynne :)
[19:24] <+LeeGarvin> Love me some KickStarter.
[19:24] <+ToddDowning> I'm with Brett.  If at all possible, I like to avoid crowdfunding, but it can be a useful tool in certain circumstances.
[19:24] <+LynneH> Morning, Gorgeous :)
[19:24] <+DavidFChapman> Hi Peregrine - is that you Andy P? Howdy!!
[19:24] <@Abstruse> QUESTION <xyphoid_> Question: how can the RPG industry tap into all those, particularly young, people who are doing freeform forum/tumblr/online roleplaying and are totally divorced from using books and dice?
[19:24] <+JamesSutton> It has been interesting to see evolution with POD and ebooks over the last decade, something that I didn't expect to evolve as quickly as it did when I set up RedBrick in 2003. Certainly, it has allowed for easier and more profitable publishing for small publishers -- easier and less risky. But the impact on brick-and-mortar isn't a phenomenon that is limited to the RPG space...
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[19:24] <+Peregrine> Hi Dave too!
[19:25] <+Jamie> Crowdfunding represents huge opportunities both in terms of funding and marketing ... but there is a price to pay.
[19:25] <+ChrisRutkowsky> I was really impressed with how well Awesome Powers did.  I kind of kick myself for not using Kickstarter for Honor + Intrigue when it was first released
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[19:25] <+TGlennBane> Crowd Funding puts indie producers in touch with investors. It is a good thing.
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[19:25] <+BrentNewhall> I'm unsure that freeform gamers *need* help from us. They're gaming just fine.
[19:25] <+TimKirk> Well. With that, its a matter of presence Xyphoid, getting materials to people who might try them, the adopters, and creator lynchpins. It isn't easy thing to do, but it is possible.
[19:25] <+ian_stewart> There are a lot of people who play entirely diceless out there. And I can't help but imagine some of these people are interested in the worlds we create as much as any of the other content.
[19:25] <+JasonHolmgren> @xyphoid_ , ages ago you used to TSR market to people that their games were 'imagination'.  A modern RPG should encourage people to be creative and to set up how it avoids the stagnation you often see in Mary-Sue type online RP, how it has risks and rewards.
[19:25] <+BrentNewhall> I don't know that they "need" to use books and dice.
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[19:26] <+Rpgpundit> xyphoid: In all likelihood, they can't.  Those young people are already doing what they want.  They're REAL "storygamers", whose goal isn't to play in an emulated world so much as to create a story, and they don't feel they need rules to do that at all.  So if they get into the RPG hobby it won't be "because" of their collaborative fan-fiction rp-writing or w
[19:26] <+TimKirk> and of course what Brent said
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[19:26] <+Rpgpundit> *whatever
[19:26] <+ChrisRutkowsky> I agree with Brent.  If people are playing without rules, why would they want rules?
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[19:26] <+JasonMHardy> xyphoid: By giving them something useful that they haven't generated themselves. So if there are needs for a well-developed setting, or coherent stats, or something, go there. But as Brent said, if they're doing fine, they might not need anything.
[19:26] <+Rpgpundit> Precisely.
[19:26] <+TRA-Preston> xyphoid The forum RP-ers don't really need much, probably just the setting and some interesting characters.
[19:26] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> xyphoid: That's a tricky one. In my experience, those who do freeform online RP'ing gravitate toward systems that are either extremely strict or really rules-lite. So perhaps moving systems into one of those directions could help persuade them to delve into tabletop RPGs.
[19:26] <+NathanRMaher> (Spooks! wttgb) xyphoid - I think online rpg through forums are a completely separate beast.  I crave the social interaction between friends present at the game table than playing play by post or MMOs.  I think it's about what flavor of gaming you prefer.  It's a social change that must take place, one tells another and eventually lures them into the grp
[19:26] <+Jamie> I think you use the new and social media as a way to make tabletop gaming seem fun. And some of that is already happening.
[19:27] <+JasonMHardy> Tech can be pointed to as different ways of playing, though, and some tools could facilitate a broader reach for dice-and-paper games. Or new ways of playing in existing settings.
[19:27] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> By taking RPGs and demonstrating how fun they can be online might also help.
[19:27] <+Ken_Spencer> Offer freeform players settings that entrance them and draw them in. I think that goal also works for more traditional role-players as well.
[19:27] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> I'm not sure anything can replace face-to-face gaming. Gary Gygax actually spoke unkindly about WoW and other games because of their lack of personal face-to-face interaction. It's my whole reason for gaming, really.
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[19:27] <+ShaneIveyofArcDream> If you want to reach out to people who are freeform gaming, you need to offer them something that's going to make their experience even more awesome. Sadly I'm not in that medium these days so I have no idea what that would be. But I encourage them to keep doing it.
[19:27] <+BrentNewhall> I'd like to see traditional games learn a few things from freeform games, like collaborative world-building and expectation settings (as we've already seen glimmers of in games like Microscope and Our Last Best Hope).
[19:28] <+NathanRMaher> +points to Gary Gygax
[19:28] * +JasonHolmgren nods to Cynthia. "We've seen a rise in youtube videos, such as Wil Wheaton's Tabletop and some other shows, which I think helps a lot."
[19:28] <+LeeGarvin> There are a growing number of folks posting YouTube videos of gaming sessions: I think that will help alot.
[19:28] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> agreed about Wil Wheaton.
[19:28] <+GeorgeVasilakos> All gamers will find new ways to 'play' their games.
[19:28] <+Peregrine> I'd argue we all board game as well as role play, what not just add freeforming etc to the club we're all part of. That way we all leanr new stuff for each discipline
[19:28] <+TimKirk> Which is a good thing, in my opinion George. Let them make it their own.
[19:28] <+Tim_Dugger> The idea is to make games accessible to the new methods of play...
[19:28] <+BrentNewhall> Amen, Peregrine!
[19:28] <@Abstruse> QUESTION <Starr> Q for anyone; How does one break into the gaming industry? Either by designing one's own game being hired by an existing company, I have a particular interest in writing if that makes a difference
[19:29] <+JasonMHardy> And the fact that people are playing is more important than insuring that they are playing in a certain way, I think.
[19:29] <+DavidFChapman> Yeah, definitely TableTop - though without Wil's budget and presentation a lot of the Youtube videos look a bit like the one from the IT Crowd...
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[19:29] <+BrentNewhall> Make something and put it out there.
[19:29] <+Jamie> These days the barrier of entry is lower than ever.
[19:29] <@Abstruse> By the way, there's an episode of Gamer's Tavern on this topic at (Link: with host Ross Watson and guests Sam Stewart and Sean Patrick Fannon
[19:29] <+Peregrine> Loooong question! :)
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[19:29] <+Rpgpundit> oh I think freeformer might also like tabletop rpgs, its just not BECAUSE they like freeforming.
[19:29] <+TGlennBane> Any way you can my friend.
[19:29] <+BrentNewhall> (And be aware that that almost certainly won't be the game that makes you famous....) ;-)
[19:29] <+TimKirk> Starr: A great deal depends on who you are, where you are, and who you know. I tried for years to freelance, but the publishers (tiny) kept being unable to publish my work because of various issues. So I got my own fingers in gear and wrote my stuff.
[19:29] <+ToddDowning> What Brent said.  Make something and get it in front of people.
[19:29] <+Rpgpundit> Starr: First, you start a controversial blog where you piss off absolutely everyone. Step 3, profit!
[19:29] <~Dan> (Quick aside: If anyone in the room is a game author guest who does not have voice, please PM me.)
[19:29] <+Peregrine> I think you can do both, whatever you do just write and do something with it. That way more door will open
[19:29] <+JasonHolmgren> @Starr, the short answer is that 'writers write'. While you can write for an existing game company, anyone now can make their own game and publish it, for only a few hundred dollars. Make your game, and then sell it!
[19:30] <+TRA-Preston> Starr That is a good question. I just jumped in with my kickstarter, made a few contacts, and hope that can get me started
[19:30] <+ian_stewart> That, Starr, is the million dollar question.
[19:30] <+ChrisRutkowsky> Break in?  I started by getting some stock artwork, and laying out the original BASH! in MS word.  I taught myself how to do photoshop enough to color the cover.
[19:30] <+NathanRMaher> (Spooks! wttgb) Starr - Sometimes you just need to produce content and gather a following or build something everyone wants to be a part of.  By being in this chat you have a lot of people you can reach out to and make a name for yourself.  Won't be long for you I'm sure.
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[19:30] <+JasonMHardy> Starr: It depends on what you want to do. If you want mainly to write and not focus on design as much, then freelancing might be the answer, because you do not want to underestimate the effort the design portion takes.
[19:30] <+BenRogers> Writers write. Artists draw/paint. Create your own world. Write for others. Get involved. We post continuously that we're looking for freelancers and we get 2-3 in a six month period of time who can do the most important job: actually produce *something*
[19:30] <+Jamie> In the old days you needed to hook up with an existing company, and that's still an option. Run events, offer to help with a company whose games you enjoy, try freelancing with them, and work your way in.
[19:30] <+JasonLBlair> The barrier of entry is incredibly low. Write/design your own thing. Put it out there.
[19:30] <@Abstruse> Peregrine: Yeah, that's why I linked the podcast episode (aside from shameless self-promotion). It's almost two hours of advice on how to get into the industry the hard way.
[19:30] <+LynneH> If you're sending in your CV to a gaming company, make sure that the spelling is good - first impressions really count!
[19:30] <+Ken_Spencer> I started by writing a column for, and then went to conventions and jsut talked to people, handed out business cards, and made contacts with those who wanted to give me the time.
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[19:30] <+ChrisRutkowsky> And there was at the time a $40 start-up fee to do RPGnow.  No idea what it is now, or if it still costs money
[19:30] <+LeeGarvin> Yeah, the barrier to entry isn't nearly as rigid as it was when I and a bunch of my elder coleagues got in.
[19:30] <+Jamie> OR you can write and design your own stuff and self-publish.
[19:30] <+GeorgeVasilakos> how to break into the gaming industry: get hired by an existing company. If that doesn't work - you can always try it yourself. But be warned.... its a lot of work
[19:30] <+ShaneIveyofArcDream> Breaking in: Play TONS of games. Make stuff up and share it with people. Pay attention to how they respond. If TONS of people love it, you're on to something. Keep working on it. Always remember you are new at it. I mean always. Like, when you've been doing it full-time for ten years, remind yourself you have plenty to learn. And keep learning.
[19:30] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> @Starr - my company is just my old college gaming group. We just put our decades of experience together and refused to stop writing until we made a game that let us do everything we always wanted to and didn't do the things we found frustrating. If you love gaming - you probably have something to say to the industry in some way or another.
[19:30] <+NathanRMaher> Starr - that or just talk to Dan, he knows everyone. :P
[19:30] <+JasonMHardy> But hone your writing by working on it every day, and drop a line to various people and ask what you have to do to freelance for them.
[19:30] <+BrentNewhall> ChrisRutkowsky: It's free now, wonderfully.
[19:30] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> Dan is kind of awesome.
[19:31] <+DavidFChapman> Well, Starr - I covered a lot of that in my blog ((Link: but I owe it all to GeorgeVasilakos and Alex Jurkat at Eden for giving me a chance.
[19:31] <+TGlennBane> You need dedication, just as in anything, a willingness to ask for help when you need it, and hold your ground when you have to.
[19:31] <+JMThompson_BPI> Not "kind of" about it Zeke
[19:31] * ~Dan blushes
[19:31] <@Abstruse> My biggest advice is networking. Go to conventions and meet people. Be cool, don't stalk anyone, but introduce yourself and chat with them. Contacts are how this business works from what I've seen.
[19:31] <+ToddDowning> Don't expect to make a living wage at it when you start (and even several years in).
[19:31] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> There are so many "right ways" to break into the industry and the amount of ways seem to grow every year. When I was first attempting to break in (late '80s), it was difficult. You either had to be able to afford to self-publish or convince existing companies to hire you. And neither approach was easy. Now, with the advent of PDFs, POD and crowd funding, almo
[19:31] <+TimKirk> I'd like to point out "Play tons of games' is very impoartant. I have witness a LOT of people who stumble upon mechanical things that have already been done and think its "new."
[19:31] <+andyhopp> Go to cons and meet people who do what you want to do.
[19:31] <+JasonMHardy> Networking is important. I've hired a number of freelancers from meeting them at conventions.
[19:31] <+LynneH> Darryl is right - talk to people
[19:31] <+BrettMBernstein> I think the simplest advice is to just be creative, do some research into publishing, make a plan, and don't give up.
[19:31] <+GeorgeVasilakos> DaveChapman is an awesome example on how to get into the industry :)
[19:31] <+JMThompson_BPI> Though I am taking applications for a stalker at conventions. Everyone has one except me :D
[19:31] <+PEGShane> Develop your ability to hold your liquor. That's what worked for me. ;)
[19:31] <+TimKirk> SO being experiences and familiar with a lot of things makes an impact.
[19:31] <+JasonMHardy> TimKirk is correct about playing games. Knowing what's out there helps.
[19:31] <+Ken_Spencer> Be prepared for rejection, even once you get that first chance to send in a writing sample.
[19:31] <+Tim_Dugger> Starr -- I got my start basically because  wrote a polite but nasty email about something I thought a company was doing wrong. I was incorrect, but it got me noticed by the company, and after some back and forth, I made a suggestion, followed up with some actually laying out my suggestion and sending him bits -- basically showed that I was not only giving suggestions but also actually ready...
[19:31] <+Tim_Dugger> work implementing them
[19:31] <+Jamie> Shane: And be an expert leg-wrestler.
[19:32] <+ChrisRutkowsky> Brent that's great.  I remember how great it felt to make that $40 back so my wife wouldn't be angry!
[19:32] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I agree that networking is crucial.
[19:32] <+Rpgpundit> Or, challenge someone about how their forum sucks. Have them give the nearly-dead forum to you, and turn it into the third biggest independent forum in the hobby. Then you'll be asked to Consult on D&D Next.
[19:32] <+JeffCombos> Breaking in: Make something. It could me something of your own creation or you could make a cool add-on or adventure for a game you know and love. Then get it out there in front of people. Doing work and doing good work will get you the attention to be able to do something official and for money.
[19:32] <+LynneH> I'll be your stalker Jonathan
[19:32] <+BrentNewhall> ChrisRutkowsky: Ha!
[19:32] <+BenRogers> If you want to break into writing games - send me an email and hit a deadline.
[19:32] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> Is there a sign up sheet for stalkers?
[19:32] <+JMThompson_BPI> Woo hoo Lynn, but how does your hubby feel about that?
[19:32] <+Peregrine> You should also consider why you want to do it. The old 'do you want to write or 'be a writer' thing.
[19:32] <+JasonLBlair> Networking is a must for the long game. And the most important part of networking is focusing more on building friendships than getting jobs.
[19:32] <+LeeGarvin> PEGShane, I find that a two-fisted grip works best for me: I almost never drop my liquor.
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[19:32] <+Rpgpundit> good point, peregrine!
[19:32] <+JasonMHardy> BenRogers made a good point--hit any deadline you are given!
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[19:32] <+TGlennBane> My first year, I went to conventions on both coasts. Asked as many people as I could, "What mistake did you make that you wish people in the business had worned you about?" I found a strong response to that question.
[19:32] * +BrentNewhall points furiously to BenRogers
[19:32] <+JeffCombos> +1 Peregrine.
[19:33] <+TimKirk> I write, because its something I cannot help but do.
[19:33] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> agreed.
[19:33] <~Dan> QUESTION: <Zero_Refresh> General question: Do you think the popularity of recent indie rpg's like Monsterhearts and Fiasco among the boardgaming community will shake up the indie rpg design scene previously associated with communities like the Forge?
[19:33] <+JMThompson_BPI> +1 to Time
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[19:33] <+JMThompson_BPI> to Tim too
[19:33] <+BenRogers> I get lots of people telling me they want to write.  I give out lots of specs.  I give out lots of offers.  I get very few people who actually respond in a timely fashion or hit a deadline I give them.  When they do, *I TAKE NOTICE*
[19:34] <+Rpgpundit> Zero_refresh: no. The Forge is dead, their theories have proven to be a catastrophic failure. Now most of the ex-forgie pseudo-intellectuals are spending their time trying to subvert the OSR or wailing about 'social justice'.
[19:34] <+JMThompson_BPI> Nothing worse than a writer that cant spell :(
[19:34] <+NathanRMaher> (Spooks! wttgb) Zero_Refresh - yes! I hope it turns it on its head and indie games get super popular!  I'm just saying it because... well you know.
[19:34] * +JMThompson_BPI seems to be having a bit of trouble with that tonight
[19:34] <+TimKirk> Zero Refresh: I hope so. Seriously. I hope so. I want more people out there creating more things and getting more notice, and like many communities the Forge became a sadly insular mess with no new blood, and thus no new inspirations or challenges.
[19:34] <+ToddDowning> Sorry to jet, but I am called to dinner and family time.  Cheers all!
[19:34] <+JasonMHardy> Zero_Refresh: No "will" about it--I think it already has.
[19:34] <+LynneH> Be honest as well - if you can't do something, tell people, don't just vanish
[19:34] <+BrettMBernstein> I don't know about a shake up in the indie design scene, but since game design is ever-evolving, it will certainly change.
[19:34] <+JeffCombos> Anyone that wants to write for me has to do three things: Fill word count, take direction, and hit a deadline. Two of those are good, but not going to cut it with me.
[19:34] <+Peregrine> Actually, if you look at the numbers we are ALL Indie games designers
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[19:34] <@Abstruse> Question for Margaret Weis: <Khar> margaretweis: Were you serious about your books being banned? Which ones and where?
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[19:34] <+Jamie> I think that we had such dominance of ONE GAME (3E/d20/Pathfinder) the pendulum has swung the other way and people are more open than ever in trying interesting and experimental games. And the Internet has created more and more ways to spread the word.
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[19:35] <+LeeGarvin> Zero_Refresh, Absolutely! The incredible design work that's been coming out of the indy scene has made me feel really insecure about what I used to think were some pretty clever mechanics. It's forcing everyone to up their game.
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[19:35] <+BrettMBernstein> Take it easy, Todd.
[19:35] <+TimKirk> Indeed Jamie.
[19:35] <+Rpgpundit> Nathan: indie games ARE superpopular. Look at LotFP, Arrows of Indra, Stars without number, etc. etc.  Its just not the 'indie' certain hipster pseudo-intellectuals wanted to have win the hobby
[19:35] <+JasonHolmgren> @Zero_Refresh: No. Because FORGE may be indie, but it doesn't overlap with the Fiasco market.  Games in new genres are awesome and we need more of those.  FORGE is more like FATE, d20, et al. which are more concerned with mechanics over expression.
[19:35] <+GeorgeVasilakos> In my experience - games like Fiasco are for people who want to dabble into RPGs but do not want to get bogged down with game mechanics/crunch. In my gamestore I see this a LOT.
[19:35] <+BrentNewhall> The market will only grow more fragmented, boardgaming adoption or no.
[19:35] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Zero_Refresh: The Indie RPG scene needs to constantly change and evolve in order to keep up and maintain interest. And the indie RPG popularity among board gamers may help with that somewhat. I sure hope so, because whenever there's a shift, it generates excitement and excitement generates innovation... and that can only be good for the industry and the hobby
[19:36] * +BenRogers agrees with Cynthia
[19:36] <+TGlennBane> I agree with CynthiaCelesteMiller.
[19:36] <+Peregrine> Once gamers are gamers the work is done and they can all enjoy all the hobby has to offer. The trick is showing more people how to game, which is why Tabletop is so brilliant
[19:36] <+Rpgpundit> The best innovation the hobby has seen in the past 20 years has come from the Old School Renaissance, ironically. The rest was just wankery.
[19:36] * +JasonHolmgren nods to George and Cynthia.
[19:36] <+TimKirk> Ditto with Cynthia.
[19:36] <+Jamie> I leave innovating new mechanics to people much smarter than me. My RPG designs are almost all frankengames cobbled together based on my preferred playstyle and the experience I want the players to have.
[19:36] * +Tim_Dugger agees with CCM as well
[19:36] <+RafaelChandler> @JasonHolmgren - Are you referring to the Forge? The website where people used to post about indie games?
[19:36] <+TimKirk> Oh, and as a back to the writing thing--Write what you want, for you.
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[19:37] <+RafaelChandler> Yeah, Cynthia nailed it. The *World games and Fiasco are selling well, and they're being played, and that's terrific. If they cross-pollinate with the board game scene, so much the better.
[19:37] <+JasonHolmgren> @Rafael, if it's what i'm thinking of, it's a lot of talk about mechanics. At least that's the links people send me.
[19:37] * +ChrisRutkowsky agrees with TimKirk
[19:37] <+TimKirk> Even if you write for others, always write what YOU want out of a game.
[19:37] <+Rpgpundit> timkirk: I do agree with that sentiment. But don't try to then pretend your game is something its not.
[19:37] <+JasonMHardy> Following up on TimKirk -- and then find a game/publisher whose style matches what you want to do.
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[19:37] <+JMThompson_BPI> Agreed Tim, I publish/write those games I want to see on the market. I am just lucky that other people are interested in them as well.
[19:37] <+NathanRMaher> Sometimes all it takes is for 1 person to like your writing and suddenly so too do their 15000 followers.
[19:37] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> TimKirk nailed it. Write the games for yourself and the rest will follow suit.
[19:37] <+BenRogers> ...unless you write something like FATAL.
[19:38] <+Jamie> *shudder*
[19:38] <+Rpgpundit> lol
[19:38] <+Tim_Dugger> ugh
[19:38] <~Dan> QUESTION: <ErrantShade> General Question: What piece of work are each of you all most proud to have created, or have been a part of creating?
[19:38] <+JasonHolmgren> People talk about the fully-realized games first, and the venues second.  It's Gone Home and Hotline Miami that are on the 'Best Indie Video Games' lists, not Unity and GameMaker.
[19:38] <+Peregrine> Fatal got mentioned, everyone has to take a drink
[19:38] * +DavidFChapman tries not to laugh out loud and wake the wife...
[19:38] <+JasonMHardy> If what you want to do is something like FATAL, it's better for all concerned that we find that out sooner rather than later.
[19:38] <+BrettMBernstein> NathanRMaher makes a good point. If someone with lots of RPG creed likes your game, so could tons of other people.
[19:38] * +JMThompson_BPI is probably the only one that has no personal experience with FATAL
[19:38] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> FATAL? I just lost 200 Sanity Points, sir. And I don't have many to spare. ;)
[19:38] <+BrentNewhall> My mind doesn't work like that, unfortunately. I'm proud of everything I've done in different ways.
[19:38] <@Abstruse> I don't know about game design, but promoting my podcast has been a pain in the rear. It's really hard to get the word out when there's a lot of competition out there in the same market. You just have to keep making something you're proud of and, eventually, you'll find an audience if it's good.
[19:38] <+LeeGarvin> Yeah, Cynthia is right: if YOU aren't excited by your work, how can anyone else be?
[19:38] * +LynneH is trying to type quietly so she doesn't wake her husband
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[19:38] <+JeffCombos> What I love about the RPG industry is that games on it are part of a spectrum from rules-light storygames to hardcore crunch. So there can be a game out there for anyone. But once you get someone onto the spectrum, they'll be more willing to try someone on one end or the other. So anything that gets people into RPGs I see as a potential win for all of us.
[19:38] <+Rpgpundit> errantshade: Its a very tough call; I'm equally proud of my two latest games: Arrows of Indra and Lords of Olympus.
[19:38] <+TGlennBane> Worlds of Pulp: Rotwang City.
[19:38] <+JasonLBlair> AMONG THE MISSING for Little Fears Nightmare Edition.
[19:38] <+GeorgeVasilakos> tough question EarrantShade....
[19:38] <+Tim_Dugger> published work? Novus, my current game (all work, then my unpublished Rolemaster revision)
[19:38] <+BenRogers> I haven't created the work I'm most proud of, yet -- ask me at Gen Con 2014 when we're showcasing Extraordinary Voyages and I'll answer more effectively. :)
[19:38] <+JamesSutton> Earthdawn Classic
[19:38] <+ChrisRutkowsky> BASH! and Honor + Intrigue.  If I had to choose only one, it would be BASH!, but I do love Honor + Intrigue
[19:39] <+JasonMHardy> ErrantShade: Shadowrun, Fifth Edition.
[19:39] <+TRA-Preston> ErrantShade The Robotic Age, available on DriveThruRPG any day now.  Also, its my first project so...
[19:39] <+Jamie> I'll flip the question and mention the one I'm most ashamed of: Sundered Reachers - d20 game sourcebook from Fast Forward Entertainment. I want to buy up the remaining copies and burn them in a metal trashcan.
[19:39] <+TimKirk> ErrantShade: High Valor. Seriously it was the game I wanted to write for years, and I finally got it write. I love Hearts & Souls, but I was out there writing without any idea of how to do it; entirely on my own. H&S2E? Now that will be a work of art, or terrible, I can't decide which :D
[19:39] <+NathanRMaher> (Spooks! wttgb) ErrantShade - I'm prodest of my current work Spooks! Welcome to the Great Beyond it's been an enlightening experience, humbling, and amazingly fun.  I can't wait for it to be finished.
[19:39] <+JasonHolmgren> @ErrantShade, I love all my children. ^.^  But I'm really excited about MYRIAD SONG, because it reaches out to new markets, and I got to work with some of my idols, and we got to push ourselves to do something different.
[19:39] <+Rpgpundit> It remains to be seen just how proud I will be about my involvement with 5e D&D.
[19:39] <+Peregrine> Usually I get excited by other people's work!
[19:39] <+ShaneIveyofArcDream> Proudest: The Unspeakable Oath issue 18. It was the first new issue in about 10 years. The new Delta Green RPG will probably take pride of place this summer.
[19:39] <+PEGShane> Deadlands
[19:39] <+Ken_Spencer> Rocket Age is by far the project I am the most proud of, though my work for Steve Jackson and Chaosium (aside from my first published adventure) are dear to me. Northlands Saga was fun, but I have learned so much since then I would do it differently.
[19:39] <+RafaelChandler> @ErrantShade -- I'm very happy about Pandemonio. It was originally published 12 years ago as Dread: The First Book of Pandemonium, and the third edition (for which I changed the name) is a monster. About 600 pages, and quite vile. Put a lot of work into it over the years, and the reviews have been terrific. Sales have been great. Pandemonio's my baby.
[19:39] <+GeorgeVasilakos> of course Shane ;p
[19:39] <+JasonMHardy> Jamie: Were you freelancing for Fast Forward too? Wonder if we worked on any of the same projects …
[19:39] <+Jamie> One small title that I'm kinda proud of from way back when ... The SnarfQuest RPG Worldbook. I wanted to keep it playable, balanced D&D 3E but still offer the kind of humor from Larry Elmore's comic.
[19:39] <+LynneH> ErrantShade - I'm very proud of Cogs, Cakes & Swordsticks because it's something that seems to be doing what I set out for it to do. I'm also very proud of the Achtung! Cthulhu Investigator's and Keeper's Guides
[19:39] * +TimKirk hearts Rocket Age
[19:39] <+DavidFChapman> Doctor Who: Adventures in Time and Space, though I did love working on Conspiracy X 2.0 - I'm hoping WILD will be my proudest achievement...
[19:40] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Asking what my favorite game of mine is, is like asking which is your favorite child. LOL!
[19:40] * +JMThompson_BPI hearts RA too.
[19:40] <+NathanRMaher> Cogs, Cakes and Swordsticks that's a fun name.
[19:40] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> If I *had* to choose... nope, I can't do it.
[19:40] <+JMThompson_BPI> And CCSS is a fun game :D
[19:40] <+RafaelChandler> Though I'm also pretty happy with my OSRIC monster manual, Teratic Tome... Dunno, it's tough to choose.
[19:40] <+JMThompson_BPI> I cant choose any... I love them all.
[19:40] <+BrettMBernstein> Treasure Awaits!, genreDiversion, Lords of Olympus, Disposable Heroes, and the new Disposable Tilescapes. OK, lots more.
[19:40] <+LeeGarvin> Tales From The Floating Vagabond has always been my favorite child, but I am also extremely proud of the work I did on the Indiana Jones book Magic & Mysticism: The Dark Continent.
[19:40] <+ChrisRutkowsky> CythiaCelesteMiller I know, I was imagining holding two kids over a cliff, and you can only save one...
[19:40] <+Peregrine> I was proud of Victoriana, just making it happen was a win, but really pumped to be part of Doctor Who and Firefly
[19:40] <+BenRogers> Cynthia, Admit it, you love killing people with SlasherFlick. ;)
[19:40] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Righto, Chris,
[19:40] <+TimKirk> Hehe.
[19:41] <+Jamie> JasonMHardy: I shared an office with them, worked on some products, and did a bunch of work that never even came out when things imploded.
[19:41] * +PEGShane Loves Lee's Tales of the Floating Vagabond :)
[19:41] <@Abstruse> <Vrond> When planning a new product line, what factors do you use in making the decision to create your own RPG system versus licensing an existing one?
[19:41] <+GeorgeVasilakos> Id have to say the upcoming Adventure Maximus - since I entered the hobby market making games for gamers - but now we will release a game for our kids.... creating a new generation of gamers. Very proud of this product.
[19:41] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Gah! I just can't dodge a question though. Cartoon Action Hour is my answer.
[19:41] <+Rpgpundit> I was amused at sneaking in an initiative system modeled after B/X/C/M/I D&D into Doctor Who
[19:41] <+Peregrine> That depends on what systems you have available
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[19:41] <+ChrisRutkowsky> Depends on which would be better for what I want to make
[19:41] <+Rpgpundit> and then hearing people praise it as brilliant "indie" design.
[19:41] <+BenRogers> We're currently only supporting out house system - Sixcess. So, it's a pretty easy decision for us.
[19:41] <+Peregrine> Its always easier to use a system you know works, but only if it really works for the game in question
[19:41] <+JMThompson_BPI> I love the Vortex system, has to be one of my favorite game systems over the last few years.
[19:41] <+LeeGarvin> Thanks, PEGShane (I'm starting a DL Noir campaign with my group, btw)
[19:41] <+JasonHolmgren> @Vrond, never license someone else's RPG. Either go OGL or make your own.
[19:41] <~Dan> QUESTION: <Dan> What other game designer in this room has influenced your work, and how?
[19:42] <+JasonMHardy> Vrond: Basically, whether the increased profile and sales the license might bring you is worth the cost and hassle the license will bring.
[19:42] <+Tim_Dugger> I am of the opinion that the system should come second to the setting....
[19:42] <+LynneH> I think you have to look at what's right for the feel of the game, as well
[19:42] <+ChrisRutkowsky> I was going to make my own swashbuckling system... then decided to license BoL to make Honor + Intrigue because I thought ti did what I wanted it to do
[19:42] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Due to our focus on genre emulation, each of our RPGs has to be its own system, though I do borrow aspects from my other games when applicable.
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[19:42] <+JasonLBlair> With STREETS OF BEDLAM, it was partially that Savage Worlds did what I wanted the game to do and I saw a gap in the SW offerings.
[19:42] *** Dan sets mode +v JeffCombos
[19:42] <+Jamie> I love the idea of creating custom games for everything, but in the end I like having a flexible game system that can be adjusted as needed for different stories.
[19:42] <+BenRogers> Shane and Cynthia Celeste Miller have influenced me the most - of the people in this room.
[19:42] <+TGlennBane> I am loyal to my own brand: Bare Bones Beyond.
[19:42] <+Rpgpundit> Dan: In this room? Hard to say.
[19:42] <+TimKirk> Vrond: I honestly look for something that will fit, mechanically, my idea. If I can find something, and I can license it cheaply enough, or free, I'll use it. I've got an upcoming project for FATE called SMITE! For example, but mostly I write my own games for their own systems, because I can build what fits far more powerfully than applying something that doesn't.
[19:42] <+Rpgpundit> brb
[19:42] <+NathanRMaher> (Spooks! wttgb) Vrond - Liscensing is something I'll never do.  Making your own game gives you more control and has better profit margins that is... if you can convince other people that it's amazing.  However, I've never liscensed.
[19:42] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> @ErrantShade - not even a book, but I'm most proud of our games "Non linear initiative system" that runs more like storytelling. It took 38 iterations and 5 years to write. I'd hug it if I could.
[19:42] <+JMThompson_BPI> If the people in this room.... DavidFChapman
[19:43] <+JMThompson_BPI> *of
[19:43] <+ChrisRutkowsky> Well, guys, I have enjoyed this, but I have to head off.  Have fun storming the castle!
[19:43] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> My influences are: Jeff Grubb, Mike Pondsmith, Tom Filsinger, Shane Hensley and Greg Costikyan (sp?).
[19:43] <+Peregrine> Too many to count
[19:43] <+LynneH> Someone gave me a great piece of advice when i was designing Fallen - don;t just create a new system for the sake of it if there's one out there already that does what you need it to do
[19:43] <+LeeGarvin> PEGShane's Deadlands was a huge influence on a lot of my more recent work, and Margaret Weis taught us how to do epics.
[19:43] <+JasonMHardy> CynthiaCelesteMiller has influenced me because she has done some Shadowrun writing and is generally worth listening to.
[19:43] <+JasonHolmgren> @Dan , Chapman's edition of Dr.WHO is one of the best RPGs I've ever played.  And boop, looks like we lost Margaret Weis, whose recent licensed RPGs have been really good at realizing how to do TV-style episodic RP.
[19:43] * +DavidFChapman blushes...
[19:43] <~Dan> Bye, Chris!
[19:43] <+TimKirk> Later Chris.
[19:43] <+Tim_Dugger> in this room, George, of course, Jamie, Margerat, Shane, and a few others
[19:43] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Awwww, thanks, Ben. :)
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[19:43] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Thank you too, Jason. :)
[19:43] <+JasonMHardy> andyhopp has influenced me with his creativity, energy, and insistence on being entertaining whenever possible.
[19:43] <+NathanRMaher> (Spooks! wttgb) Dan - Preston Poland influenced me not to put androids into Spooks! Welcome to the Great Beyond.  But... people are asking :)  Vampire Tesla could make one.
[19:44] <+Jamie> I'm hugely influenced by the TSR gang back during the AD&D 2nd Edition crowd as I was as big of a TSR fanboy as I could have been back in the day.
[19:44] <+PEGShane> Second Andy Hopp. *Genius*
[19:44] <+JasonHolmgren> Did anyone here write for DYING EARTH? That's another fave.
[19:44] <+TRA-Preston> Ha
[19:44] <+Ken_Spencer> Margaret Weis and Ken Hite both influenced me, though they likley do not recall talking to me at GenCon several years ago about getting into the industry. Of course as Rocket Age is a Vortex System game, Chapman has been a huge influence.
[19:44] <+LynneH> I wrote for Dying Earth!
[19:44] <+JasonLBlair> PEGShane and GeorgeVasilakos for their support early on in my career.
[19:44] <+Jamie> Zeb Cook and Jeff Grubb are two I have to pick in a big way, but it would take forever to list my influences.
[19:44] <+JasonMHardy> Margaret Weis influenced how I think about setting.
[19:44] <+JMThompson_BPI> Of course there is not a single designer in this room that I would even hesitate to buy a book from
[19:44] <+DavidFChapman> I'm taking screen grabs of this to print out and frame for the many moments when I have major, major doubts in writing and game design...
[19:44] <+BrettMBernstein> PEGShane and Tim_Dugger definitely gave me inspiration in system and character mechanics.
[19:44] <+JasonHolmgren> Not in this room, I'd also like to thank Aaron Allson, George MacDonald, and Tom Moldvay.
[19:44] <+NathanRMaher> ...or maybe Vampire Tesla is a cyborg and isn't telling anyone.  Darn you Preston!
[19:45] <+TimKirk> Infleunces: S.John Ross, C.J. Carella, Bill Coffin, Jeff Grubb, Cynthia Celeste Miller, and about a million other people.
[19:45] <+TGlennBane> Whoops, I missed the question: I have been influenced the most by Shane.
[19:45] <+BrentNewhall> Margaret Weis's Marvel system opened my eyes to some very cool dice mechanics and approaches to characters.
[19:45] * +Tim_Dugger blushes
[19:45] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> @Dan: Choosing people in this room, I'd have to go with margaretweis. I have a similar story to Ken, she probably doesn't remember encouraging me in a GenCon conversation, but it moved me to write.
[19:45] <+TimKirk> Bleh. Typing.
[19:45] <+LeeGarvin> TORG was a revalation, as far as I'm concerned. It showed that "I hit it" is not the only thing you can do.
[19:45] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> You're too kind, Tim. :)
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[19:45] <+Jamie> Tracy Hickman at worldbuilding in a big way.
[19:45] <+JamesSutton> PEGShane, professionally and personally.
[19:45] <+Peregrine> I'd add Cam Banks and the Team behind Cortex plus
[19:45] <+JMThompson_BPI> I still run TORG.
[19:45] <+PEGShane> Second what LeeGarvin said about TORG. :)
[19:45] <+TimKirk> Tracy Hickman is awesome. I once talked ot him online for a while. Very nice gentleman.
[19:45] <+TRA-Preston> Nathan, do I hear a crossover!
[19:45] <+BenRogers> Wait...  I may be an ignorant fool....  Is there a TORG designer in this room?
[19:45] <+DavidFChapman> Agreed with GeorgeVasilakos for his support, and CJ Carella (wasn't he supposed to be here?)
[19:45] <+NathanRMaher> Hey, if the funds are there why not?
[19:46] <~Dan> (No word from CJ, unfortunately. :( )
[19:46] <+JMThompson_BPI> Im currently running a Dragonlance campaign based entirely on a conversation I had with Tracey Hickman.
[19:46] <+PEGShane> I wrote several books for it but wasn't part of its original creation.
[19:46] <@Abstruse> QUESTION (From me this time...) What would you say is the biggest hurdle in the modern gaming market for a product? Both for new and established brands.
[19:46] <+TGlennBane> TORG was like nothing else.
[19:46] <+Peregrine> I suppose more than most this industry is 'standing on the shoulders of giants' because we all play the games we all make too
[19:46] <+Rpgpundit> Back; had to pick up supper. One of the advantages of living in south america is that you can get home delivery of home-made Gnocchi Bolognaise for $6
[19:46] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> To be totally honest, virtually everyone I've dealt with since joining the industry has influenced me in one way or another. Great, talented folks.
[19:46] <+Jamie> I ran TORG for a few years, so fair enough.
[19:46] <+PEGShane> Getting the word out.
[19:46] <+BenRogers> Shane, well, then you'd have hit my "people who have influenced me in this room" list again. ;)
[19:46] <+ian_stewart> Making yourself seen, definitely.
[19:46] <+JasonHolmgren> @Abstruse: Getting into stores.
[19:46] <+JeffCombos> I get inspired by lots of different things and lots of different people doing great work. But as much as I'm ashamed to admit it, I'm also inspired by someone doing poor work. It hits me in the gut and makes me say "I can do better than this" or "If they'd only done *this* it might
[19:46] <+Jamie> What Shane said.
[19:46] <+GeorgeVasilakos> getting it into players hands
[19:46] <+JeffCombos> word better."
[19:46] <+TimKirk> Biggest hurdle? Getting people to notice my wee games...
[19:46] <+LynneH> Letting people know you're there
[19:46] <+JasonMHardy> What PEGShane said. Visibility is hard.
[19:46] <+TGlennBane> Marketing. Marketing. Marketing.
[19:46] <+JamesSutton> Cynthia, true that.
[19:47] <+Jamie> Right now everyone is screaming at the top of their lungs at the same time. Hard to stand out against all the background noise.
[19:47] <+Ken_Spencer> Marketing, getting heard over the general signal noise.
[19:47] <+JMThompson_BPI> AFK
[19:47] <+JasonLBlair> Visibility.
[19:47] <+Tim_Dugger> biggest hurdle is getting folks to try something new...
[19:47] <+Peregrine> Standing out among the array of great stuff
[19:47] <+JasonMHardy> And then what everyone else said, too. There seems to be a trend …
[19:47] <+BrettMBernstein> I agree with TimKirk: getting noticed.
[19:47] <+Jamie> Pretty consistent answer I'd say. :-)
[19:47] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> The biggest hurdle, in my opinion, is the sheer volume of other games on the market these days. Getting your stuff noticed can be daunting.
[19:47] <+NathanRMaher> Abstruse - critics.  We all know gamers are intelligent, fun but also critical.  I'm critical.  Your critical.  I just have to be sure not to cry at the first "I hate it."
[19:47] <+TRA-Preston> Abstruse Gettng noticed. I think i've seen 3 or 4 new fantasy rpgs come out last year. They might be good but at a glance I can't tell them apart.
[19:47] <+TimKirk> It doesn't help that I was born with the superpower "Don't notice me.." heh.
[19:47] <+JasonHolmgren> GAMA does nothing to help indies, and the monopoly of Diamond/Alliance has often refused to even distribute indie games, and they've been doing it for decades.
[19:47] <+BrettMBernstein> I think CynthiaCelesteMiller nailed it.
[19:47] <+ShaneIveyofArcDream> Yeah. Finding enough people to get passionate about it. There are lots and lots of really amazing games out there already. You need to find your niche and keep expanding it.
[19:47] <@Abstruse> NathanRMaher: You know I review games for Ain't It Cool News, right? :p Not all of us are jerks, I promise.
[19:48] <+BenRogers> I think if I knew the answer to that more people would know about our games....
[19:48] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> @Abstruse:  I have to side with TimKirk, the biggest hurdle for us is exposure.
[19:48] <+Tim_Dugger> too many folks get set in what they like to play and often don't realize that they can have fun playing in other styles, so if it isn't what they are used to it can be hard to get them to try (too many times, they end up thinking you are attacking what they like when that is not true)
[19:48] <+JamesSutton> Differentiation. What makes your <fantasy/sci-fi/modern/superhero/small furry creature from Alpha Centauri> game stand out from other <same genre> games?
[19:48] <+Jamie> JasonHolmgren: I'm on the GAMA board, and we're working on addressing those issues so that we can help new publishers as well as we do new game stores.
[19:48] <+Rpgpundit> i've had no hurdles. I succeed at everything I do, much to my critics' chagrin.
[19:48] <+BrentNewhall> I agree with Tim_Dugger that it's more getting people to try something new.
[19:48] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Ben: You've done a great job making Sixcess noticed.
[19:48] <+JasonMHardy> JasonHolmgren makes a good point about distributorship. That's a part of getting noticed is getting enough eyes on a game so distributors want it, but that's really tough to do without distribution. Catch-22.
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[19:48] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> Abstruse: Anytime you want to review a new RPG, you just let me know. :)
[19:48] <+TimKirk> Heck, I've been to a con--one of the other biggest hurdles is getting people to notice anything that isn't D&D/Pathfinder
[19:48] <+NathanRMaher> Oh, I wouldn't have it any other way Abstruse.  :D  I'll throw you on my list though for press release.
[19:48] <+DavidFChapman> I'm sat in my pyjamas so I too have a problem with exposure...
[19:48] <+GeorgeVasilakos> #2 hurdle is PDF theft - Im sorry but the theft of our PDFs and books is a HUGE problem in the modern market.
[19:48] <+BenRogers> Cynthia, you're too kind. Thank you. :)
[19:48] <+BrentNewhall> There are so many groups running D&D/Pathfinder or Star Wars every week for years.
[19:48] <+TGlennBane> I found a GAMA useful for exposing me to what I was up against and the panels at GAMA are useful.
[19:49] <+LeeGarvin> Promotion has always been a huge pain for me.
[19:49] <+Rpgpundit> I have a 100% review rate. My reviews are posted on my blog and on theRPGsite, where they are read by thousands.
[19:49] <+JeffCombos> Visibility is the biggest hurdle. I published Hollow Earth Expedition almost 8 years ago, have supported the line with additional books and material, won some awards for it, and ran successful Kickstarters to expand it further, and yet, at every convention I meet tons of people who've never heard of it before. Heck RPGPundit still has no idea who I am. :)
[19:49] <+JasonHolmgren> @Jamie, I wish you the best of luck, and if things change, drop us a line, since we resigned from GAMA years ago, in public protest. :/  No offense.
[19:49] <+Jamie> Including a publisher's handbook that we'll have out this year and we have an entrepreneurial booth program at our shows.
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[19:49] <@Abstruse> (My press contact email address is if anyone wants to add me to press release lists, BTW).
[19:49] <+Rpgpundit> Ben: how much help have you had marketing Sixcess from your church?
[19:49] <@Abstruse> <ErrantShade> General Question: There is an ever increasing demand for digital mobile tie-ins for RPGs and Board Games, however those platforms almost always require a race to the bottom pricing structure, which encourages quantity over quality. Is a shift to digital inevitable? And would you rather see a gamer reading your art on Scribd, or not at all?
[19:49] <+Jamie> No offense taken. We've been working on making GAMA a real trade organization for all levels of the industry. One little step at a time.
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[19:50] <+JMThompson_BPI> Back
[19:50] <+Rpgpundit> Sorry, Jeff. You should come post on theRPGsite. Its a great environment for RPG designers. Unlike certain other fora.
[19:50] <+TimKirk> That would be awesome Jamie!
[19:50] <+BenRogers> Pundit, the Christian response to Sixcess has been "YOU'RE EVIL! JUST LIKE D&D! YOU'RE GOING TO HELLL!" They even told us that "six sided dice are evil because six is satan's number".  I weep for the faith I call my own.
[19:50] <+JasonHolmgren> @ErrantShade, you're really seeing a squeeze that removes the middle, where games are either really cheap/digital, or they're really expensive, quality Euro-game affairs in the $60USD+ range.
[19:50] <+TimKirk> Ben:I'm so sorry. I'd lend you my mom if I could--Devout baptist, and not gamer, but she's defended my gaming for years.
[19:51] <+BrentNewhall> BenRogers: Ugh. Whereas most of my gamers are Christians....
[19:51] <+Jamie> And @JasonHolmgren said it.
[19:51] <+Rpgpundit> Ben: so the people manning your tables at cons etc. are not from your church/faith community?
[19:51] <+JMThompson_BPI> Mine too Tim
[19:51] <+JasonMHardy> ErrantShade: You have to be careful about pricing. People will always want it lower, and I sympathize with them, because I want things I buy to be cheap, too. But you can't let that put you into a space where you are selling yourself out of business.
[19:51] <+NathanRMaher> ErrantShade - one market at a time for this guy.  I'd love to do digital mobile tie-ins but that may be in the not so distant future.
[19:51] <+Peregrine> Digital is more of a problem for retailers I think than for designers. Lower prices can mean more people actually buying your stuff. But I thin kmost gamers still like having a book in their hand
[19:51] <+JasonHolmgren> Take a look at Cheapass games, where their $7-10 range of stuff disappeared, and now KILL DR. LUCKY is only available in a $60 Euro-deluxe set.
[19:51] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> As long as someone is reading or playing my game, the format matters not. I'd rather it be on Scribd than unavailable at all. I know that sounds silly, but there it is. I'm an entertainer at heart.
[19:51] <+RafaelChandler> @ErrantShade -- Digital works for me. If someone wants to stick one of my PDFs on a tablet, that's great.
[19:51] <+TimKirk> My mom is like an old west gunslinger of Baptist!
[19:51] <+BrentNewhall> My enemy is not price but invisibility.
[19:51] <+DavidFChapman> @errantShade - I'd been pondering the idea of bringing out rulebooks as Apps - like the awesome Harry Potter Film Wizardry - the pages are animated, you can embed videos and stuff, but Apps are harder to pirate than a PDF... anyone else considered this?
[19:51] <+LynneH> ErrantShade - there's a fascinating article somewhere about pricing for e-books. Oddly, people will take free and $2.99, but price something at $1.99 and they get suspicious!
[19:51] <+BenRogers> Pundit, Heaven's, no. LOL I don't even attend Church (I consider modern churches to be apostate.) In fact, the only three people in our group that I know are Christians are me, Ren and Scott.
[19:52] <+Rpgpundit> Living in the only secular country in south america, most of my gaming group is agnostic or atheist
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[19:52] <+NathanRMaher> I do have a friend working on a mobile/web character generator.  We'll see where that goes...
[19:52] <@Abstruse> For those here late, if you would like to join the audience channel to ask a question, type /j #rpgnet-audience If you need to set your nick, you can do so by typing /nick NewNameHere
[19:52] <+JasonMHardy> Other parts of the question: Digital will grow, but I think people are seeing that there are some things digital does well, other things print does well. So I think print isn't going away.
[19:52] <+Rpgpundit> none are churgoers
[19:52] <+Jamie> I think the eBook version of RPGs will continue to rise as that becomes a more standard way to use and reference books. Yet board games are specialty items that work at high price points.
[19:52] <+JasonHolmgren> Shout out to Shane who influenced our early pricing. Originally, we wanted to market our books pretty cheap and entry level at $15-20.... and our experience showed that people don't buy those in the volumen to make them affordable.
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[19:52] <+Rpgpundit> *churchgoers
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[19:52] <+TimKirk> Tablets are HUGE HUGE things that are shaping future gaming.
[19:52] <+JasonHolmgren> That's why, for example, you saw the D&D product line go from inexpensive $20 splatbooks to $40+ giant hardcovers.
[19:52] <+Tim_Dugger> I have actually posted a copy of a beta of my game on scribd, and I have it fully available in HTML (across many many pages) on my website. Thus, I supply ways to get it free (but it takes work), I then created 3 different PDFs, each with differnt levels of content (game content is equal) and functionality and priced them accordingly
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[19:52] <+TimKirk> Cheap computers that are easy to use and hold.
[19:52] <+BrentNewhall> Amen to TimKirk.
[19:53] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> BenRogers: I've preached sermons on D&D that were well received. I even preached a sermon on one of margaretweis 's books. That being said, I also grew up with most people telling me that D&D would make me worship the devil.
[19:53] <+JamesSutton> Tablets have accelerated the move to a digital market, for sure.
[19:53] <+JeffCombos> @RPGPundit: I'm just teasing you. I used to post on your site when HEX first came out and got some good support there.
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[19:53] <+Rpgpundit> Ben: thank you for your answer. So how did you get such a huge level of on-the-ground participation, ie. 10 tables at cons, etc. when your game was barely heard of yet?
[19:53] <+JasonMHardy> And the final part: It's a difficult question. I think people sharing things and parts of your game can be a good way to get eyes to your games and eventually generate paying customers. But there are also people who will use Scribd to avoid paying for something.
[19:53] <+BenRogers> Pundit, At the last Gen Con events, the only "churchgoer" that I know of was Scott and his wife.  Most of my most avid fanbase is Jewish, in fact.  Oddly enough.
[19:53] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Our PDFs have sold more since the rise of the tablet.
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[19:53] <+JasonMHardy> So I'm ambivalent, but I think at least some sharing and Creative Commons-type licensing can help a game.
[19:53] <+TimKirk> I can't believe I was even pirated. I was like "What? Really?"
[19:54] <+BenRogers> Pundit, I did give the GMs a fairly sweet package of swag... ;)  But seriously, they just love the game and wanted to support us.
[19:54] <+LynneH> My lovely hubby got the iPad version of Forbidden island to test it out. We enjoyed it so much, we bought the physical versions of that and Forbidden Desert, so digital can be a good lead-in
[19:54] <~Dan> QUESTION: <Jojo-the-monkey> Could each of the guests perhaps mention their probably best-known game so that the audience may know who everybody is?
[19:54] <+TimKirk> I think you may be right Jason.
[19:54] * +JasonHolmgren nods to Cynthia. "Digital is alwasy going to be here as a market, and gamers have shown that they like the rapid indexing features."
[19:54] <+Peregrine> All my impulse purchases are pdf, and I buy a lot on impulse
[19:54] * +BenRogers Promised Sands
[19:54] <+RafaelChandler> Okay, gang, it's been awesome. Day job beckons, and I must go!
[19:54] <+JasonLBlair> My best known release is probably still the original LITTLE FEARS.
[19:54] <+BrentNewhall> When somebody develops a multimedia format that lets us publish something more like a web app, watch out.
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[19:54] <+Jamie> I have a well-known game?
[19:54] <+Rpgpundit> Ben: well damn. I'll have to edit my review then, I was sure this was an evangelizing effort by a group, rather than an individual. But I'll take you at your word
[19:54] <+Peregrine> Victoriana, Hellcats and Hockeysticks
[19:54] <+Ken_Spencer> Rocket Age from Cubicle 7
[19:54] <+JasonMHardy> Bye RafaelChandler!
[19:54] <+JMThompson_BPI> Gaslight Victorian Fantasy or Eldritch Skies
[19:54] * +LynneH Cogs, Cakes & Swordsticks; Achtung! Cthulhu
[19:54] <+GeorgeVasilakos> Conspiracy X - All Flesh Must Be Eaten - Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG
[19:54] <+JayLittle> Star Wars Edge of the Empire / Age of Rebellion RPGs
[19:54] <+NathanRMaher> Jojo-the-monkey (is that a monkey island reference?) Spooks! Welcome to the Great Beyond; Secrets of the CitySpire; Rubberband Lazer
[19:54] <+TimKirk> Jojo: I've got all of two games out, mind you I've got other works out there for other companies. High Valor, and Hearts & Souls. Are mine.
[19:54] <+JMThompson_BPI> Jamie, he said best known... not well known :D
[19:54] <+PEGShane> Savage Worlds, Deadlands
[19:54] <+JamesSutton> I think there is a tool maturity gap that has still to be traversed, though it's happening quickly. That is, the authoring tools that make it as easy to create an interactive electronic product as it is to make a PDF.
[19:54] <+Tim_Dugger> I used to work for Mjolnir, LLC (dba Iron Crown Enterprises) and my first work was HARP (High Adventure Role Playing), my most recent work is Novus
[19:55] <+DavidFChapman> @jojo-the-monkey - probably best known for Doctor Who: Adventures in Time and Space, and Conspiracy X 2.0
[19:55] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Spectrum's most popular game is Cartoon Action Hour (currently on its third edition). Capes, Cowls and Villains Foul is a close second.
[19:55] <+TimKirk> (With More coming)
[19:55] <+JasonMHardy> Anything Shadowrun from the past four years or so.
[19:55] <+ShaneIveyofArcDream> Delta Green.
[19:55] * +JasonHolmgren is the creator of IRONCLAW, the anthropomorphic fantasy game. He's worked on ALBEDO, USAGI, NOGGLE STONES, and MYRIAD SONG.... but you're most likely to know his work in KNIGHTS OF THE DINNER TABLE.
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[19:55] <+ian_stewart> The New Horizon RPG is my only work to date. If you've heard of it, cool. If you bought it... Hold on to it, you'll be able to trade in first and the second eddition for something better.
[19:55] <+BenRogers> Pundit, you can check with Cynthia Celeste Miller.  She traveled with us and shared a booth with us at Gen Con.  She's a lesbian atheist.  She's also a dear friend and advisor.
[19:55] <+BrentNewhall> Well, I just launched the Kickstarter for The Whispering Road, which is already 350% funded. My biggest seller so far has been the OSR Handbook, a non-fiction look at several dozen OSR systems.
[19:55] <+Rpgpundit> Jojo: I'm more famous for being the RPGPundit than anything else, but: Lords of Olympus, Arrows of Indra, Gnomemurdered, Forward to Adventure! Also, controversial D&D Next Consultant
[19:55] <+TimKirk> Jason: I need a new Jadeclaw with rules darn it :D
[19:55] <+JeffCombos> @Jojo: My best known game is Hollow Earth Expedition, but I've also worked on Wraith, Scion, and a few video games, including Quantum Break, which is a combination video game/live TV show coming out from Microsoft.
[19:55] <+TGlennBane> The Dark Fantasy of Sundrah, Bare Bones Multiverse, Bare Bones Beyond.
[19:55] <+TRA-Preston> Jojo-the-money: I am Preston Poland, my first game The Robotic Age is about androids and cyborgs fighting with laser swords and plasma cannons. It will be out as soon as DriveThruRPG approves it.
[19:55] <+LeeGarvin> Jojo, My best known game would have to be Tales From The Floating Vagabond. (less well known, but a lot of fun, was "Punch My Brother in the Back of the Head").
[19:55] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Thankee, Ben. :)
[19:56] <+BrettMBernstein> Precis Intermedia: Lords of Olympus, Treasure Awaits! EarthAD, HardNova, Coyote Trail, Two-Fisted Tales, Warcosm, Shatterzone, et al.
[19:56] <+JamesSutton> Earthdawn Classic/Third Edition (though I don't do that any more), Fading Suns (which I don't do any more), Blue Planet (which i do now)
[19:56] <@Abstruse> I write the Ain't It Cool News Tabletop column and I'm the owner and on-air engineer of the Gamer's Tavern podcast. I'm also a frequent participant in Q&As which is why Dan drafted me.
[19:56] <+Rpgpundit> Lee: Tales was awesome!!
[19:56] <+Jamie> Some stuff I did was here: (Link:
[19:56] * +Zeke_ClockworkDominion Clockwork: Dominion (formerly Clockwork: Empire)
[19:56] <+Jamie> And you're awesome, Abstruse!
[19:56] *** Dan sets mode +v Kenneth_Hite
[19:56] <+BrentNewhall> JeffCombos: My first local con game was a session of HEX, which I still have fond and vivid memories of.
[19:56] <+Peregrine> I've got to find this red text button, I am a chat noob! :)
[19:56] <@Abstruse> Jamie: Thank you.
[19:56] <+Jamie> There you are, Ken!
[19:57] <~Dan> (Sorry, Kenneth! Didn't see you come in!)
[19:57] <@Abstruse> Peregrine: It's /me
[19:57] * ~Dan has been a bit busy...
[19:57] <+Rpgpundit> I also own and I added the term "Swine" to the hobby lexicon (as well as a few others, like lawncrapper and pseudo-activist)
[19:57] <+LynneH> Andy, it's the "/me burble" thing
[19:57] * +Peregrine Ah!
[19:57] <+LeeGarvin> <blush>
[19:57] <@Abstruse> QUESTION <Yog_Sothoth> Q: A way that the video game industry is getting around piracy is by offering microtransactions for just about anything in their game worlds. Would this model work in pen and paper gaming? Why or why not?
[19:57] <+Kenneth_Hite> Here I am! Best known for "being Kenneth Hite" as RPGPundit says.
[19:57] <+GeorgeVasilakos> hi Ken!
[19:58] <+JeffCombos> @BrentHewhall: That's awesome!
[19:58] <+Jamie> Microtransactions are also ruining parts of video gaming.
[19:58] <+JMThompson_BPI> Allo Ken. Now the party can start :D
[19:58] <+Kenneth_Hite> Trail of Cthulhu, GURPS Infinite Worlds, Star Trek, Day After Ragnarok, Night's Black Agents, etc.
[19:58] <@Abstruse> For the record, this is something that d-Infinity started this past summer, selling OGL content as microtransactions per feat/class/magic item/monster/etc.
[19:58] <+Jamie> I think the way to combat piracy is price and convenience.
[19:58] <+ShaneIveyofArcDream> I think we're seeing something of the microtransaction thing. There are tons of $1 PDFs and things you can get.
[19:58] <+JayLittle> microtransactions are just one of many "gacha principles" being applied to gaming more and more often -- they are symptoms of a bigger issue, not the issue itself
[19:58] <+Peregrine> We kind of already do. You buy a corebook and then have to fork out for many supplement
[19:58] <+Rpgpundit> Yog: I don't think it would. The way to get around "piracy" (*wrong term, its FILESHARING) is not to bother. You adapt to it by getting money-up-front in your efforts; and recognizing that filesharing has never been proven to actually impact profits
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[19:58] <+JasonHolmgren> @Yog_Sothoth, gamers will always pirate games. I'm not sure how micro-transactions can really help ($1 for 10 more page of rules?) ... There's been a lot of success in 'pay what you want' for some people, which could work.
[19:58] <+BenRogers> I think the best way to stay ahead of the piracy in the industry is to ... stay ahead of it.  Don't try to sit back on your laurels and earn royalties from years ago - produce new stuff and make your old stuff obsolete.
[19:58] <+TRA-Preston> Yog_Sothoth so like 99cents for a new magic sword? $2 for a new class?
[19:58] <+JasonMHardy> I haven't thought about making micro transactions work in pen-and-paper mainly because I don't like the way they work in video games. Giving advantages to whoever shells out the most makes me itch.
[19:59] <+NathanRMaher> Yog_Sothoth No idea.  I am creating playing cards and small digital tradable brochures.  We'll see where it goes.  Pirates aren't always bad people, they may just not have the funds to purchase.  I've "pirated" a few things but gone back and purchased it when I had the funds.  I love books.  I can't help it.
[19:59] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> Yog_Sothoth: I think White Wolf came up with microtransactions a long time ago with their $10 sourcebooks. We've gotten away from that to a market full of $60 hardbacks... but maybe it's time to go back.
[19:59] <+Rpgpundit> (massive summer storm about to hit here, btw, so a slight chance I may get cut off if hte power goes out in The Abbey)
[19:59] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Yog_Sothoth: We're kind of experimenting with something like that with CAH:S3. We're offering a ton of mini-expansions to expand upon the game. Not exactly the same thing, mind you, but still in the ballpark.
[19:59] <+JasonHolmgren> Getting back to the bath-tub curve, crowd-funding has shown that the best price for games is either 'really low' or 'really high with lots and lots of extras'.
[19:59] <+JamesSutton> Yog_Sothoth, I think we see that kinda of micro-transaction on sites like OneBookShelf, where publishers produce small, inexpensive documents for various games.
[19:59] <+Tim_Dugger> Yog-- I don't think it would work, not in the way you are thinking. Basically once an rpg product is out, it is out. For video games, you are eseentially limiting content until further payment, but that is after install, so doing a new install does not give you that new content again...
[19:59] <+Peregrine> Piracy is a big question. But I think making it easier to buy legitimate stuff helps. After all, many pirates are never going to buy your stuff anyway
[19:59] <+ian_stewart> Microtransactions are something I'm taking a hard look at. They're not exactly something that's especially liked in the gaming industry.
[19:59] <+Jamie> When the Gamma World boxed set came out for the D&D4E game system, they did a thing with booster packs for new mutations.
[19:59] <+JeffCombos> +1 BenRogers
[19:59] <+Jamie> And I don't think it worked out.
[19:59] <~Dan> QUESTION: <Jadomonkey> Question: How is the health of the industry compared to 10 years ago?
[19:59] <@Abstruse> Also, I know Catalyst Game Labs had some success during the 4th Edition era of Shadowrun selling smaller 20-30 page PDFs for dirt cheap, as well as their Missions adventures. Not sure if you'd count that as "microtransactions".
[19:59] <+TimKirk> I don't charge all that much to begin with..;:D
[19:59] <+JMThompson_BPI> No, cause I got tired of buying boosters... only get a lot of stuff I already had.
[19:59] <+Jamie> Depends on how you measure health.
[19:59] <+BrentNewhall> It's quite possible to make microtransactions work; you just need a highly divisible system. Most indie games are small enough to make that difficult.
[20:00] <+JasonHolmgren> @Jadomonkey, worse, but we're still alive. =D
[20:00] <+ShaneIveyofArcDream> But yeah, microtransactions won't stop piracy. Fighting piracy is less useful than making sure your books that get pirated are good enough to convert people who encounter them into die hard fans. Once they start loving you for your work, they don't mind paying to support it.
[20:00] <+JayLittle> thriving, stronger, more diverse, and filled with a new generation of designers who grew up on a different generation of games than their forebears
[20:00] <+Rpgpundit> Ben: FtA! was pirated almost as soon as it came out; it was my first RPG, I think 6 years ago now? I'm still getting royalties off it.
[20:00] <+BenRogers> It's improving.  However, it's being attacked from all sides and is hampered by a flagging economy overall.
[20:00] <+Peregrine> That question really depends on how you define Health and Industry
[20:00] <+Tim_Dugger> more diverse now, which is a good thing, but the economy is much worse, so sales are harder since there is less disposable income
[20:00] <+Kenneth_Hite> Microtransactions are only going to be viable if there's an ongoing online platform to play. Otherwise, you're just charging booster-pack prices for DLC or writing cheap splatbooks.
[20:00] <+JasonMHardy> Jadomonkey -- Gaming overall is stronger, RPG is -- not so much.
[20:00] <+BrettMBernstein> I'm not sure I would apply the term "health" to the injury, rather the state of its adaptation.
[20:00] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> The industry is in an interesting place due to the influx of new companies. To me, though, this is a good thing. Profits have been up for Spectrum Games the last 3 years or so.
[20:00] <+TGlennBane> The Bare Bones system was inspired by "B" Movies and Pulp, so micro genres and cross-overs is exactly what we are after.
[20:01] <+BenRogers> Tabletop games are doing great - but it's mostly the boardgames that seem to be growing.
[20:01] <+TimKirk> I think thats a complex issue, the hobby is strong, the industry? I've no idea beyond my little part of it--but with D&D pushing back in a crazy way with premium books, and reprints, and old books as PDF's, with new works coming out, I think we're seeing some nostalgia return, and some people who are just inspired by life.
[20:01] <+Jamie> I think the ease of RPG publishing has split the audience into increasingly smaller fragments.
[20:01] <+JasonMHardy> Abstruse: Yeah, the PDF line has been useful, but I'm not sure how comparable it is to micro transactions.
[20:01] <@Abstruse> Just a reminder for the audience, if you would like to join the audience channel to ask a question, type /j #rpgnet-audience and don't forget to set your username with /nick NewNameHere
[20:01] <+TimKirk> changes to come back to gaming.
[20:01] <+Tim_Dugger> 10 years ago, it was hard to find anything under the crush of d20 (remember, 3.5 came out 10 years ago, and killed half the new publishers that had cropped up as well)
[20:01] <+JasonHolmgren> RPGs are part of the entertainment budget.  Cell phone apps and video-games have eaten into that budget. Fortunately, the RPG industry has been quick to respond, with digital-downloads and such.
[20:01] <+Peregrine> I don't think anyone really has the figures, especially as the industry has changed so much
[20:01] <+Rpgpundit> Jadomonkey: the INDUSTRY (as opposed to the hobby) is not in great state just now.  10 years ago we had a strong and successful edition of D&D. Today we're in transition from the worst edition ever (in commercial terms, as well as intellectual, having failed due to adopting stupid theories).  The health of D&D is largely the health of the "industry".
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[20:01] <+Kenneth_Hite> Jadomonkey -- we've hit the bottom of the canyon, and are either dead-cat bouncing or climbing a little way back up the rocks. Ask us again next year after D&D NEXT has come out and we see its sales numbers.
[20:01] <+JeffCombos> Microtransactions are a different animal. And while they may work in video games, traditional games are resistant to them--to put it mildly. As someone else pointed out, the boxed set of Gama World is a good example. In an industry where we want players to only be limited by their imagination, microtransactions limit them by their pocketbook, which sucks.
[20:01] <+JamesSutton> For microtransactions, it's possible that could still be coming. As I noted earlier, the tools need to be there to make that kind of authoring easier. For example, the cheap core rulebook that runs on your tablet and allows you to unlock the classes you want to play for 99 cents each (and adds that content to your tablet). Just off the top of my head...
[20:02] <+Rpgpundit> Now, the "hobby", including small press RPGs, are doing better than ever.
[20:02] <+TRA-Preston> I think an RPG focused version of TableTop would probably help books just as much as TableTop helped board games.
[20:02] <+NathanRMaher> 4th Edition D&D was just awful.  Totally awful.
[20:02] <+Jamie> Well I'd say Pathfinder is doing pretty well ...
[20:02] <+TRA-Preston> NathanRMaher +1
[20:02] <+GeorgeVasilakos> Health of the Industry: There are LESS game stores now than 10 years ago - but with PDF and direct sales - publishers can "make more" by selling less - as for the general health of the industry as a whole - sales in all product categories are at its all time high.
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[20:02] <+JMThompson_BPI> The economy plays a big part in that too.
[20:02] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Yeah, D20 had a bit of a stranglehold for small press games back 10-12 years ago. I was always getting "When are you doing a D20 version of Cartoon Action Hour?" question back then.
[20:02] <+Peregrine> Yet we also have Gen-Con saying its numbers are growing hugely
[20:02] <+JasonHolmgren> The sales are lower, but the overhead is lower, too.
[20:02] <+TimKirk> I'm sot glad you braves your way through that Cynthia.
[20:02] <@Abstruse> NathanRMaher: Some of us liked 4th Edition D&D for what it was, so be nice :p
[20:02] <+Jamie> Origins might sell out the hall soon this year as well. (Spoiler Alert)
[20:03] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Thanks, Tim. :)
[20:03] <+Tim_Dugger> JamesSutton -- that COULD be done by building a custom app for your game, but that is what it would require, so that the app displayed the content, that it was not part of a regular PDF
[20:03] <+Rpgpundit> I predicted it when 4e came out. In a blog entry I stated, "by adopting concepts from GNS and making D&D focused on only one thing, your only result will be to lose 2/3rds of your customer base. And that's EXACTLY what happened.
[20:03] <+Peregrine> Reatailers have certainly been hit but there are more rpg companies, having said that fewer people working with gaming as their sole income
[20:03] <+JMThompson_BPI> Think it has or GenCon already, I recall begin told something about a waiting list.
[20:03] <+Jamie> I liked 4th Edition as a game for what it was, but it obviously did not accomplish its goals as a product line.
[20:03] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I liked D&D 4E... but I'm primarily a miniatures gamer, so...
[20:03] <+BrentNewhall> 4E D&D is my favorite edition.
[20:03] <+JasonHolmgren> Ten years ago, it would've been almost unthinkable for an indie to release a full color book. Today, it's the norm.
[20:03] <+Rpgpundit> abtruse: I'm not talking about whether you liked it or not, I'm talking about how it did commercially.
[20:03] * +JMThompson_BPI liked D&D4e too, but liked 3e better.
[20:03] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> It was like Deluxe HeroQuest.:)
[20:03] <+TimKirk> I tried 4E, it didn't click with me or my players, so we went and played something else.
[20:03] <+NathanRMaher> Yea, Abstruse, a good gaming friend of mine swears by it but I miss Skills and Powers 2nd edition and 3.5 was good but couldn't hop the transition.
[20:04] <+GeorgeVasilakos> ....thats because the cost to produce RPG product has lowered.
[20:04] <+BenRogers> When we can bring the Millenium Falcon's holographic chess technology to RPGs and miniatures gaming, we may be able to bridge the gap between the videogamers and the tabletop gamers. :)
[20:04] <+JayLittle> if a solid digital tabletop would have been released to support 4E as was first hinted at by 3E marketing materials, i think 4E would have been a huge success
[20:04] <@Abstruse> NathanRMaher: Everyone has their opinion. As long as people are gaming and having fun with the game they're playing, who is anyone else to judge? Unless, you know, that game's FATAL or something...
[20:04] * +Tim_Dugger steps away from the budding "edition war"
[20:04] <+Peregrine> I really like 4E, but if I'd been playing 3rd I'd have not been able to upgrade and keep my campaign going. I think that was the main problem
[20:04] <+Rpgpundit> Jason: surely that speaks more to the health of our enormous technological advancement, though
[20:04] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I'd be all over that, Ben. :)
[20:04] <+TimKirk> I'm one of the few who played a LOT of 2E...AD&D, not just "read" but played
[20:04] <+JamesSutton> Tim_Dugger -- Indeed. But I was thinking more of the next generation of authoring tools and that includes PDF authoring. That could be years away, however.
[20:05] <+BrentNewhall> I'm waiting for the successor to PDF.
[20:05] <+Rpgpundit> Jesus, its a typhoon here!
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[20:05] <+JMThompson_BPI> I still have an active 2e game going TK.
[20:05] <+Rpgpundit> Nice though, its been 40C all week
[20:05] <+Jamie> AD&D 2E? Um, that was the heart of my gaming life.
[20:05] <+JamesSutton> BrentNewhall -- Exactly.
[20:05] * +JasonHolmgren nods to James. "authoring tools are cheaper and better than ever."
[20:05] <+JayLittle> yeah, what's going to be the DVD -> Blu-Ray upgrade for RPG delivery?
[20:05] <+BenRogers> Pundit, it's 0 here in St. Louis. Snow on the ground, I'm wrapped in a blanket enjoying my laptop's heat...
[20:05] <+TimKirk> Awesome Jonathon, If I hadn't moved, and gotten divorces, well I might still be running my newish Dark Sun game
[20:05] <@Abstruse> QUESTION <FlipperBuzzbomb> In a physical store, I could window shop, pick up a book, leaf through it if the owner was amenable. In electronic/POD marketplaces, all I have is the blurb that they put next to the coverart thumbnail. Advice on how to winnow the wheat from the chaff in an e-reader world to find new cool things?
[20:05] <+Ken_Spencer> AD&D 2e is D&D to me, everything after has lured me in and then turned me away.
[20:05] <+JayLittle> -40 wind chill here in the Twin Cities!
[20:05] <+NathanRMaher> Abstruse - I humbly agree.  Just saying though, no Ravenloft in 4th edition.  What was with that?  I couldn't get many people interested in Ravenloft but gesh... Darksun was ressurrected kinda which 4th edition did.  Good things do come from 4th ed I guess.
[20:05] <+Rpgpundit> ben: 0C, I presume? not 0 American?
[20:06] <+ShaneIveyofArcDream> Most digital markets allow you to look through excerpts.
[20:06] <+Peregrine> Visit a games shop and buy some stuff there! :)
[20:06] <+BrentNewhall> You have to look for reviews.
[20:06] <+Jamie> Good question: If someone figures that out lemme know.
[20:06] <+JamesSutton> Flipper, simple. Buy everything from everyone here and ignore the rest.
[20:06] <+BenRogers> For Sixcess, we put out a "Quickstart" that is a stripped down version of the game for a free download.  We even include characters and an adventure for you to try it out.
[20:06] <+Rpgpundit> flipperbuzzbom: the way you do this now is you go to forums like and ask about the games.
[20:06] <+BrentNewhall> Or what JamesSutton said.
[20:06] <+TimKirk> Flibberbuzzbomb: Lots of awesome previews. LOTS AND LOTS of awesome previews. You can get two huge previews of High Valor which explains a major chunk of the rules. So "not just a blurb."
[20:06] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> To be fair, DriveThru/RPGnow allows for PDF and Flash previews, so you can "browse".
[20:06] <+JasonLBlair> Any good digital marketplace should offer some sort of preview as well. It's up to the publishers to take advantage of that.
[20:06] <+Tim_Dugger> FlipperBuzzBomb -- I posted my entire core game on my website -- I did it across many, many many pages (making printing it out difficult), but it *does* allow for viewing it prior to purchase
[20:06] <+JasonHolmgren> @FlipperBuzzbomb - look for PDF previews of games. DriveThruRPG offers a 'quick preview' of a dozen pages or so. And many games, like mine, offer $zero 'previews' of their books for you to peruse. Start with those.
[20:06] <+Jamie> I think social networking and seeing recommendations / reviews of people with similar taste it'll help you.
[20:06] <+NathanRMaher> FlipperBuzzbomb I try to allow a large review of the book.  You got to know what you are buying.
[20:06] <+BenRogers> Pundit, 0F - about -20C
[20:07] <+TGlennBane> Talk to people, get involved in chat rooms, gaming clubs, even contact the company directly. Most of us enjoy talking about what we produce.
[20:07] <+JasonLBlair> Far too many "previews" are just the Table of Contents.
[20:07] <+Ken_Spencer> Reviews, and especially review numbers. You have to keep an eye out for that one negative review that is poorly written and illogical.
[20:07] <+LeeGarvin> FlipperBuzzBomb, Is that you, Paul?
[20:07] <+Kenneth_Hite> FlipperBuzzbomb Same way you do on Netflix streaming; by creator, by subject matter, by whether the cover is lame.
[20:07] <+Peregrine> The good thing with RPGs is that if even just the basic idea is interesting to you, then the book will prove useful. Most gamers will rewrite and adapt the games they buy anyway to some degree.
[20:07] * +JasonHolmgren nods to Jason. "At consumer request, I expanded my previews quite a bit."
[20:07] <+JayLittle> netflix analogy is a good one
[20:07] <+Rpgpundit> Ben: The Wench is currently in Canada, where its -40C.  I'll take +40C anyday.
[20:07] <+JMThompson_BPI> Thats because they dont actually set up the preview they let the computer do it (been guilty of that myself a time or two)
[20:07] <+JasonMHardy> Yeah, echo what people have said about previews--either on DriveThru or on the publisher's site, you can usually find stuff.
[20:07] <+LynneH> I wrote the entire first chapter of Cogs, Cakes & Swordsticks so that it could be put out as a free introductory game
[20:07] <+TimKirk> Indeed. GOOD previews, not just TOC's or Indices, but you know a good Index is worth its page count
[20:07] <+JeffCombos> +1 JasonLBlair. Too many people do themselve a disservice by not making sure their preview covers actual content.
[20:07] <+JasonMHardy> And keep an ear to the ground through forums, social media, and chats like this to see what people are talking about.
[20:08] <@Abstruse> Rpgpundit: I'm in Texas. You've never experienced +40C in 100% humidity if you can say that with a straight face.
[20:08] <+DavidFChapman> LynneH - that is particularly genius!
[20:08] <+ian_stewart> I think it's very important to have a digital sample of a product that is primarily seen in a digital medium. Essential, even.
[20:08] <+LynneH> Why thank you, David ;)
[20:08] <+Rpgpundit> abtruse: uruguay regularly has 100% humidity in the summer.
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[20:08] <+Tim_Dugger> I went with the "penny paint sale" analogy (from Happy days), where the game itself can be gotten for free, but then the extras (like art, or having it all in one document, or an index, are extras to charge for)
[20:08] <+JasonHolmgren> Admittedly, my previews concentrate on character creation rules, and then basic rules, so that way a GM can hand the PDFs out for quick-start of games. Then it's dual purpose.
[20:08] <+NathanRMaher> Google alerts is great to finding out what people are saying... that or obsessivly google your game.  I don't know anyone who does that.  ;)
[20:08] <+JeffCombos> +1 TimKirk
[20:08] <+TimKirk> I had one review that was flat out wrong, and misunderstood a rule completely. Alas, I couldn't get it corrected. So *shrugs*
[20:08] <+BenRogers> The Sixcess Quickstart (our free preview) enjoys a brisk download rate and quite a few purchases are made because people have a chance to try it out.
[20:08] <+JamesSutton> +1 TimKirk
[20:08] <+Rpgpundit> theRPGsite has an incredible "Reviews" Subforum and features the two best reviewers in the hobby: me and Dan.
[20:09] * ~Dan blushes
[20:09] <+JasonMHardy> Ooo, speaking of quick-start rules--use Free RPG Day! Get whatever people are giving out!
[20:09] <+JayLittle> if your customers communicate primarily digitally (social media, email, whatever) then you need to make sure you offer a solid preview product tailored to their experience -- because that's how they're going to share it
[20:09] <+Rpgpundit> plus tons of good reviews from other people too.
[20:09] <+JasonHolmgren> Some games have a lot of luck with the 'pay what you want' method. I understand Eclipse Phase released their entire game under Creative Commons?
[20:09] <+Tim_Dugger> Dan... when were you getting around to doing that review?
[20:09] <+Tim_Dugger> heheh
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[20:09] <+Kenneth_Hite> Trying to correct inaccurate reviews is, as they say, like wrestling with a pig. You get muddy and you entertain the pig.
[20:09] * +DavidFChapman - BRB
[20:09] <+Rpgpundit> Incidentally, if any of you here are looking to get your game reviewed where it will be read by thousands of people, please send me a PM.
[20:09] <+LynneH> Yes, Cogs got a few preview unhappy reviews because a short version was uploaded by mistake. As soon as we realsied, we rectified the problem, but I don;t know if you can contact people to let them know :(
[20:09] <+JasonLBlair> Alright, folks, I have to run. Have a great time!
[20:09] <+Jamie> Afraid I can't stay any longer.
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[20:10] <+Jamie> Thanks for having me.
[20:10] <+JayLittle> later Jason
[20:10] <+Jamie> G'night!!!
[20:10] <+LynneH> Bye guys!
[20:10] <+TimKirk> Later Jason
[20:10] <+NathanRMaher> Thanks you two!
[20:10] <+Peregrine> Bye guys!
[20:10] <+JasonMHardy> Later leaving people!
[20:10] <~Dan> Bye, Jason, Jamie!
[20:10] <+BrettMBernstein> Good night, Jason.
[20:10] <+Kenneth_Hite> Bye J, J.
[20:10] <+JamesSutton> G'night!
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[20:10] <+Ken_Spencer> By Jason!
[20:10] <~Dan> And welcome, Eloy!
[20:10] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Bye, Jason!
[20:10] <+TGlennBane> Goodnight Jason.
[20:10] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Hi, Eloy!
[20:10] <+ShaneIveyofArcDream> Time's up for me too. Thanks for hosting, Dan.
[20:10] <+Zeke_ClockworkDominion> I must step out as well. Good night all.
[20:10] <+TRA-Preston> Hey Eloy
[20:10] <+TimKirk> Night Shane.
[20:10] <@Abstruse> <Jadomonkey> Question: What's the biggest limitation of .pdfs for your products? Where would you like to see electronic products go?
[20:10] <~Dan> Bye, Shane, Zeke!
[20:10] <+JMThompson_BPI> Night Shane, Hey Eloy
[20:10] <+LynneH> Night Shane
[20:10] <+JeffCombos> @JasonMHardy: I was a big supporter of Free RPG Day for a while, but it's expensive to print material, doesn't always turn into actual sales, and people complain about not getting everything they should. I had boxes of material from previous years returned to me years later, actually, because "they forgot it."
[20:10] <+BrettMBernstein> Then good night to everyone who is leaving :)
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[20:11] <+TGlennBane> Goodnight Shane.
[20:11] <+Eloy-3EG> Yo Preston and Dan and JMThompson!
[20:11] <+Eloy-3EG> This is already off the chain.
[20:11] <+TimKirk> Jadomonkey: The software itself. Adobe is not very good, at what its supposed to be good at...
[20:11] <+Rpgpundit> jadomonkey: I love pdfs. I think they have very few limitations. Until we get holo-books or something like that, they're cool.
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[20:11] <+JasonMHardy> JeffCombos: Ouch. That is a pain, and it would be good to take away some of the threshold so more people could participate.
[20:11] <+JayLittle> licensing can be a real pain when it comes to offering content electronically
[20:11] <+Rpgpundit> Where Eloy is, morlocks cannot be far behind.
[20:11] <+BrettMBernstein> I miss Acrobat 4. It was fast and reliable. Acrobat now sucks.
[20:11] <~Dan> QUESTION: <Guest94> Q: What genres do you think are missing in today's RPG landscape?
[20:11] <+Eloy-3EG> Agreed
[20:11] <+TimKirk> Indeed Brett. Indeed.
[20:11] <+NathanRMaher> Jadomonkey - you can't touch it, you can't smell it, you can't magically open the rulebook to the page that holds the key to your arguement against the rules lawyer, you can't put it on your shelf and impress your friends.
[20:11] <+JasonHolmgren> @Jadomonkey, our products tend to be art oriented, with long form comics as narrative elements, which I don't feel translate very well in PDF form.
[20:11] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I'm pretty happy with the PDF format as well.
[20:11] <+BrentNewhall> .pdfs don't allow us to embed audio or video. They're not accessible for those with vision disabilities. They have no interactivity, like embedded dice rollers or character sheet generators.
[20:12] <+Peregrine> I think we're covered most of them
[20:12] <+Kenneth_Hite> In re PDFs: what Rpgpundit said. Can't beat ubiquity.
[20:12] <+Peregrine> We might have ot invent some new ones
[20:12] <+JamesSutton> Jadomonkey: Singularly, a way to update content dynamically, instead of the republish/redownload/replace mode.
[20:12] <+JasonMHardy> BrentNewhall made a good list. They can also be slow to use.
[20:12] <+ian_stewart> Acrobat could be a little fancier. Embedding audio and video, as mentioned before, would bring this sort of product an entirely new dimension.
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[20:12] <+JayLittle> there are plenty of genre-agnostic rules systems that allow for play in virtually any desired thematic setting -- i don't think anything's been "missed" per se
[20:12] <+GeorgeVasilakos> Id prefer to see instead of a static PDF - a more interactive - flash based website RPG book instead. With handheld tech growing - innovative designers can make this happen
[20:12] <+JasonHolmgren> @Guest94 - The biggest, under-served genre is 'modern day thriller'. Every year, lots of movies and video games come out that deal with modern-day action-adventure, but almost no RPGs do.
[20:12] <+TimKirk> Guest94: Hrms. Good question. Lovecraftian Post-Apocalypse (mind you Lovecraft's corpse is pretty well used up.) In general though more stuff thats out and out fun, willing to take a few risks, and make us play.
[20:12] <+TRA-Preston> Guest94 if I can think of one, I'll probably make a game around it. I made Robotic Age because of the lack of robot-related sci fi
[20:12] <+BenRogers> I think the comedy genre is somewhat missing. The games have "funny moments" but aren't focused on comedy. Everything is very serious.
[20:12] <+Rpgpundit> Guest94: that's a tough one.  I think there are some interesting things that could be done; but there's really games of all kinds of genres.  I think mainly, there's some genres that are still under-developed. Police/detective Crime rpgs, for example.
[20:13] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> What genres do you think are missing in today's RPG landscape? I'm still trying to emulate the odd ones. Like Retrostar will cover 1070s-era sci-fi TV shows exclusively. Stuff like Battlestar Galactica, Buck Rogers, Space 1999, etc.
[20:13] <+NathanRMaher> Guest94 - Quick easy to play, victorian undead genres.
[20:13] <+BrentNewhall> JasonMHardy: Yeah, OTOH, I think Fiasco's swallowed up much of that genre.
[20:13] <+JMThompson_BPI> Lovecraftian Science Fiction? Oh wait, got that covered :D
[20:13] <+Ken_Spencer> I tend to not think along 'what genre is missing' and just start with a setting and go from there.
[20:13] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> 1970s-era, I meant.
[20:13] <+Kenneth_Hite> You mean "besides Night's Black Agents" right JasonHolmgren? :^)
[20:13] <+BrentNewhall> I don't think genres are missing. People play what they like, and the big ones are popular because people are playing them.
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[20:13] <+NathanRMaher> I miss Monkey Island and Loom TM video games, I think they would translate well into tabletop gaming genres.
[20:13] <+BrentNewhall> Folks really love Star Wars.
[20:13] <+TimKirk> There are whole new genres being created (or sub-genres) every day..
[20:14] * +JasonHolmgren just looks at Tim. "Seriously? The Lovecraft genre is glutted, with Laundry, CthulhuPunk, Eso-terrorists, maybe Eclipse Phase... It's like zombies."
[20:14] <+Rpgpundit> For historical fantasy, there's still enormous ground to be covered.  Particularly when you get into something other than medieval europe. But even within medieval europe!
[20:14] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I have so many ideas for an RPG that emulates film noir.
[20:14] <+JMThompson_BPI> I dont really decide what the genre is, just like Ken mentioned.... I kind of just figure out a setting I like and want to write and go from there.
[20:14] <+LynneH> I think that, thanks to the indie game market, there's pretty much something out there covering everything - somewhere...
[20:14] <+TimKirk> Jason: But nothing post-apocalyptic...
[20:14] <+Kenneth_Hite> Guest94: Romance. Besides Emily Care Boss and It's Complicated, there's almost nothing there.
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[20:14] <+TimKirk> Romance needs some love.
[20:14] <+Peregrine> I'd argue Smallville filled that gap pretty well
[20:14] <+TGlennBane> Style, more than genre is unique. Concentrate on the quality of the genre you choose.
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[20:14] <+Rpgpundit> Kenneth: Even with that, there's still nothing that's an actual RPG.
[20:14] <+JasonHolmgren> I love modern day action-adventure, and here we come with DELTA GREEN which is another Lovecraftian one. Granted, it's great lovecraftian, but it's still a Cthluhu game first.
[20:15] <+JeffCombos> The best place for growth are genres that people don't know they want yet. And genre mashups are a good place to look for that. Firefly wasn't a thing, until sci-fi and western were thrown together and now people bandy it about as if it were it's own genre.
[20:15] <+BrentNewhall> Ooooh. Yes. Romance. (I have a romance RPG in the works, actually....)
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[20:15] <+JMThompson_BPI> What about anime games, those quite often have a romance theme.
[20:15] <+TimKirk> Get to it Brent!
[20:15] <+JamesSutton> I think most genres are covered, it's finding the differentiation that's the k icker.
[20:15] * +BrentNewhall stealthily moves that game up on the schedule.
[20:15] <+JasonHolmgren> +Tim, Eclipse Phase is post-apocalypse and has aliens that drive you insane. It's also pretty popular.
[20:15] <+BenRogers> Is a Romance RPG like the Sims, but with dice?
[20:15] <+Peregrine> You see, now next year will be full of Romance RPGS!
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[20:15] <+TimKirk> I want to see that gives tools (not rules) for romantic relationships and stories in games.
[20:15] <+Eloy-3EG> Oh man, a Romance RPG would be amazing
[20:15] <+JasonHolmgren> I'd echo JM that 'anime games', such as shonen-themed games, would be a great addition to the libraries.
[20:15] <+Rpgpundit> I think though, that a lot of the genres that aren't covered are very tiny "niche" genres.  I seriously doubt that tomorrow the "romance" genre will become gigantic. The reason these have few games is because they're not popular genres and never will be.
[20:16] <+JMThompson_BPI> Write Eloy... do it Little Mermaid style. :D
[20:16] <+DavidFChapman> Yeah, missed the boat with the Romance RPGs when there wasn't an Official Twilight RPG
[20:16] <+Kenneth_Hite> Romance is the biggest-selling genre in the world, by an order of magnitude.
[20:16] <+Tim_Dugger> and if there are Romance, then there must also be the "Anti Romance"
[20:16] <+NathanRMaher> DavidFChapman - thankfully...
[20:16] <+JasonHolmgren> Why did NOBODY make a game about young-wizards-school?
[20:16] <+LeeGarvin> I'd like to see a way to effectively do an MGM Musical-style game.
[20:16] <+Rpgpundit> Kenneth: for NOVELS, yes. But for RPGs? Unlikely.
[20:16] <+GeorgeVasilakos> Someone should just make a SIMS RPG - then you can make sourcebooks for whatever genre you want ;p
[20:16] <+JasonHolmgren> That boat saled.
[20:16] <+BenRogers> There just aren't enough "My Little Brony" RPGs...  (My slacking attempt at humor...)
[20:16] <+JasonHolmgren> Er, sailed.
[20:16] <+Peregrine> Again, I'd say Smallville nailed the romance rpg, but sadly seemed to pass unnoticed
[20:16] <+TimKirk> Jason: I don't consider it much of a P-A game by most readings of P-A, because its got super transhumanism stuff. Not about survival, struggle, its about glitz...its a neat idea, but ot the same, it was just an idea anyway.
[20:16] <+Kenneth_Hite> JasonHolmgren Matt Forbeck did.
[20:16] <+BrentNewhall> JasonMHardy: Check out "Magicians", the Korean-themed RPG. :-)
[20:16] <+TRA-Preston> JasonHolmgren there is litterally a game out there called Little Wizards
[20:16] <+JamesSutton> Fifty Shades of Grey: the RPG?
[20:16] <+TimKirk> Ben: An untapped market.
[20:16] <@Abstruse> <Yog_Sothoth> Q for all: Have you ever considered releasing Youtube videos of a game session for your products?
[20:17] <+BenRogers> Yes, but no one wants to see me on video.
[20:17] <+Eloy-3EG> Nothing Romantic about Fifty Shades of Grey
[20:17] <+BenRogers> No one.
[20:17] <+Kenneth_Hite> Rpgpundit If "viable genre" only means "genre there are already RPGs for" then there are by definition no new genres.
[20:17] <+JMThompson_BPI> Considered it, but no one wants to see me.
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[20:17] <+JasonHolmgren> @Yog_Sothoth, my people look worse than Ben Rogers. :D
[20:17] <+BrentNewhall> I release YouTube videos for almost all my games. I actually do a regular Saturday game.
[20:17] <+Tim_Dugger> JamesSutton -- didn't FATAL cover that one? <shudder>
[20:17] <+Rpgpundit> Yog: I have not and don't think I would. Game sessions tend to be notoriously boring if you're not actually playing in them.
[20:17] <+TGlennBane> Yes, in fact I will be releasing some youtube tutorials later this year.
[20:17] <+ian_stewart> Oh, hell yes. Video tutorials are one of the best uses the Youtube medium has to offer.
[20:17] <+BrettMBernstein> JasonHolmgren, nice one.
[20:17] <+GeorgeVasilakos> I should release the video we had to make for FOX showing people playing a roleplaying game when we pitched the Buffy RPG to the licensing people... lol
[20:17] <+Peregrine> I'm not sure that would help, for the same reasons I won't let people watch a game. you only realyl get it if oyu play, even if you just sit with a character sheet in front of you
[20:17] <+TRA-Preston> Yog_Sothoth the one video I did put out already had someone mention my lisp. Not sure I need a speaking role agian.
[20:17] <+NathanRMaher> Yog_Sothoth - Yes! and I will need a camera and people who aren't poised towards gett "off topic" and making bad adult references in a PG 13 game.  Lots of editing to happen I'm sure.
[20:17] <+LeeGarvin> Yog, I attempted to do just that for some TF2V playtests, but we had tech problems (I'm bad at technology.).
[20:17] <+JasonHolmgren> We have done streaming tools, but that show our board and our minis instead of our faces.
[20:17] <+Rpgpundit> For Arrows of Indra, Bedrock Games released instead an awesome video featuring some of the art with traditional Raga music in the background.
[20:17] <+JasonMHardy> Yog_Sothoth: Yeah. I have someone bugging me to do that. Just want to figure out how to avoid the problem Rpgpundit mentions, that such sessions are not always fun for outsiders to watch.
[20:17] <+DavidFChapman> I would, but I'd worry that it'd look like the webseries Moss did in the IT Crowd...
[20:17] <+TimKirk> Yog_Sothoth: Yeah, I have. Just hasn't been technically feasible yet (don't have a good video camera, and no, no tablet counts.)
[20:17] <+JasonHolmgren> Some of those were loaded to youtube.
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[20:17] <+JayLittle> works great for a boardgame with a consistent ruleset and expected play pattern -- but rule zero, gm/player fiat, and costumization are cornerstones of RPGs, so it's hard to create a video that is truly representative
[20:18] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I'm soooo not photogenic. But I wouldn't mind having someone else on screen, playing/running our games.
[20:18] <+JamesSutton> Tim_Dugger -- I think FATAL went beyond that genre ...
[20:18] <+Ken_Spencer> My playtesters have suggested it, but we would have to edit out so much side chatter, table talk, and nonsense. BEsides, Jon Hodgson does an excellent job of making videos to promote Cubicle 7 products.
[20:18] <+BenRogers> Didn't they try to make a sensual/sexual RPG back in 2003? And didn't it crash and  burn?
[20:18] <+Kenneth_Hite> Yog_Sothoth Always happy to link to them when they happen, but video production is yet another giant skill set/time suck publishers don't have.
[20:18] <+BrentNewhall> One important element: I limit my sessions to 2 hours, so there's minimal side chatter.
[20:18] *** #rpgnet-allstars No such nick/channel
[20:18] *** INVITE Not enough parameters
[20:18] *** Brad_Elliot No such nick/channel
[20:18] <+BrentNewhall> I do it all via Google+ Hangouts, so I don't need a crew.
[20:18] <+JasonMHardy> BenRogers: Are you talking Book of Erotic Fantasy or Blue Rose?
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[20:19] <+Rpgpundit> I would be amused if someone did a "sensual" rpg only to have the Pseudoactivists go nuts about 'rape culture'.
[20:19] <+Tim_Dugger> BenRogers: you mean the "Book of Erotic Fantasy"? <another shudder>
[20:19] <@Abstruse> QUESTION: <JoshuaMeadows> All Stars Q: Have you considered selling your digital products with a gaming group license instead of a per user license?
[20:19] <+JMThompson_BPI> Would have to be BoEF, cause Blue Rose was just awesome :D
[20:19] <+BenRogers> I honestly don't remember the name. I just remember the booth at Gen Con with the ladies in scanty clothing and how surprised they were that none of the "huge male demographic" was ignoring them.
[20:19] <+Rpgpundit> joshua: I'm not a publisher, so I wont comment on that one.
[20:19] <+BrentNewhall> My games aren't really licensed. If only the GM buys the PDF, then explains it to the group, that's fine by me.
[20:19] <+PEGShane> We do that with our Player's Guides.
[20:19] <+Eloy-3EG> I assumed everything already had a group license. We all know people buy the PDF and make copies for their friends.
[20:19] <+NathanRMaher> BenRogers: Book of Erotic Fantasy?  I don't have that book, stop making accusations. Not what I anticipated.  I really wanted racial-cross breeding rules.  Didn't get it.  Very dissapointed.
[20:19] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> That's an interesting idea. :)
[20:19] <+BenRogers> They didn't realize the "huge male demographic" was also "incredibly socially inept".
[20:19] <+TimKirk> JoshuaMeadows: No, then again I fully expect my books to be shared in play. I'm also pretty willing to give permission IF explictly asked.
[20:20] <+ian_stewart> I have thought about that very notion, yes. But considering DRM is the devil, it would be hard to enforce.
[20:20] <+JasonHolmgren> @JoshuaMeadows, that's an interesting idea.  Currently, I know of no e-publisher that offers that. The idea that you could buy, say, five copies to gift four of them away is an excellent one.
[20:20] <+Rpgpundit> Oh yea, I also coined the phrase "magic deer" and "venisonocracy".  Those aren't in use so much since BR folded though.
[20:20] <+Tim_Dugger> JoshuaMeadows: I actually expect PDFs purchased by one person to be shared with his gaming group, just like physical books are.
[20:20] <~Dan> Really? I thought I coined "venisonocracy". :D
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[20:20] <+BrettMBernstein> <JoshuaMeadows>, Yes. I actually coded that into my website years ago, but didn't get enough interest.
[20:20] *** Dan sets mode +v Brad_Elliott
[20:20] <~Dan> Welcome, Brad_Elliott!
[20:20] <+LeeGarvin> JoshuaMeadows: That's a very interesting idea, but I think it would necessitate an increase in price, just out of self-defense.
[20:20] <+JasonMHardy> JoshuaMeadows: I can't remember if stuff sold through our shop has DRM applied or not. I'll check, because it's a decent idea.
[20:20] <+Rpgpundit> Dan, you might have, but then I went and coined it first.
[20:20] <+Brad_Elliott> Made it!
[20:20] <+NathanRMaher> I expect people who purchase 1 pdf to share it with all their friends and then maybe they can pool funds together to buy books.
[20:20] * ~Dan chuckles
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[20:21] <+TimKirk> Nathan: I hope for that too. Enjoy it? Buy more!
[20:21] * +JasonHolmgren hughs at Brett. "That's interesting to know."
[20:21] <+BrettMBernstein> However, I don't have a problem with a group using a PDF if just one person buys it.
[20:21] <+JeffCombos> If someone buys a a physical book they can already share it DRM-free with anyone. So I'm comfortable doing the same with digital content as well.
[20:21] <+Rpgpundit> Let's face it Dan, when the average rpg guy hears that term, its not Dan Davenport they think of.
[20:21] <+BenRogers> We're actually producing out next settings with a primary book and a free "player's handbook" version that has no watermark - so the GM can print off as many copies as he likes for his players.
[20:21] <+JasonHolmgren> We also release our books DRM free. We trust our users.
[20:21] <+Brad_Elliott> Hey, Jason & Jeff - first time in a while!  :)
[20:21] <+Rpgpundit> DRM sucks
[20:21] <~Dan> Sadly, my greatest contribution to gaming lore may be having coined the phrase "giant mutant fire clams and flying grizzlies with laserbeam eyes" to describe World of Synnibarr. :D
[20:21] <+ian_stewart> I'm with Brett, a group sharign resources is nothing new.
[20:21] <+Peregrine> I don't think you can offer the same comparisons with books and pdfs, they are far too different to legislate the same way
[20:21] <+JMThompson_BPI> Ive been known to buy extra copies and give them away to my gaming group.
[20:22] <+TimKirk> I have too...
[20:22] <+JeffCombos> Hiya Brad!
[20:22] <+GeorgeVasilakos> gaming groups already share
[20:22] <+NathanRMaher> I think the idea about pdf sharing is realizing YES you want money but realistically, it'll be in 10 peoples hands before you know it.  What's a couple mega bytes between friends?
[20:22] <+Rpgpundit> Seriously, RPG publishers have to stop fearing filesharing. I personally judge how popular my game really is by whether its actually being fileshared or not.
[20:22] <+BenRogers> ....I don't want to talk about the term that Dan coined for my first product.....
[20:22] <+Tim_Dugger> DRM -- too easily broken, and only annoys your honest customers -- so I don't mess with it...
[20:22] <+TimKirk> Half the games my frieds own I think came from me trying to get to play them...rathert than GM them all the time.
[20:22] <+Brad_Elliott> Dan - you could be Darren MacLennan, whose great contribution will probably reviews of FATAL and Wraethu...
[20:22] <~Dan> BenRogers: Heh. Yeah, probably a good idea. :)
[20:22] <+JasonHolmgren> @Rpgpundit, we don't fear file-sharing. We fear not being able to pay our talent. ;)
[20:22] <+TimKirk> friends*
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[20:23] <+NathanRMaher> I think I would be very excited to see something I wrote file shared.  I'd say to myself, and probably to my wife 5 or 6 times, "They like it that much not to pay for it? That's awesome!"
[20:23] <+Rpgpundit> jason: I don't think filesharing affects you bottom line.
[20:23] <+JMThompson_BPI> Are you sure you didnt mean "fiends" TK?
[20:23] <+TimKirk> No.
[20:23] <+BenRogers> We actually have a message to those who "steal" our game in the front of the book - we thank them for valuing it enough to steal it so they can play it. :)
[20:23] <+TimKirk> I'm not sure..:D
[20:23] <+TGlennBane> Thanks for having me on Dan. I enjoyed panelling with eberyone. I have to run. Good bye for now.
[20:23] <+Peregrine> We should be trusting our customers, but the customers should recognise the publishers need their cash to survive too if they want them to make more books. PDFs arn't that expensive after all
[20:23] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Darren and Sartin's revciew of FATAL was epic. 30+ pages long, if I recall correctly. :)
[20:23] <+Tim_Dugger> ciao Glen
[20:23] <+Tim_Dugger> Glenn*
[20:23] <+Rpgpundit> Exactly. Small Press in particular runs on goodwill. Though more and more, it will run on goodwill via crowdfunding.
[20:23] <+LynneH> Night, Glen
[20:23] <~Dan> Bye, Glenn!
[20:23] <+Brad_Elliott> Hey, another person I know from in person (besides Dan, of course) Hi, Cynthia!
[20:24] <+JeffCombos> +1 RPGPundit. I want people to pay for my game, but if they want it badly enough to pirate it, it's a good bet they're going to play it.
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[20:24] <+TimKirk> "Dear people: I like to eat a hamburger now and then, please buy my game if you like it so I can eat..a hamburger.."
[20:24] <@Abstruse> In a related QUESTION: <FlipperBuzzbomb> Comment for the panel: I like owning physical books (far easier to flip pages to find what I want). I hate that after I burn significant money on a high quality book, I still have to (relative) money on a digital copy (so I can have one on the table for players and one for my reference). Thoughts/comments on 'free with physical purchase' ebook
[20:24] <@Abstruse> distro?
[20:24] <+ian_stewart> These nine lizards don't feed themselves, so I want to make life as simple as possible for anyone willing to purchase a product from me.
[20:24] <+LynneH> You know it's early when the dawn chorus kicks off outside your window...
[20:24] <+BrentNewhall> I've watched filesharing gut another industry, so I'm not convinced it's having no impact on the RPG industry.
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[20:24] <+Rpgpundit> Which basically eliminates the question of filesharing altogether, because profit is being made up-front.
[20:24] <+JasonHolmgren> @Rpgpundit, there's a video currently on youtube of IRONCLAW, where the reviewers show screen-shots from a bootlegged version of the game, so I don't know if they're reviewing our game or the bad bootleg that's out there. I'm not sure how that affects our bottomline.
[20:24] <+TimKirk> I'll give anyone who buys a print a PDF. Period.
[20:24] <+JMThompson_BPI> We offer free pdfs to every purchase of a printed book.
[20:24] <+JayLittle> After you watch a movie in a theater, are you upset you also have to spend money on a DVD?
[20:24] <+Peregrine> Most companies hand out a free pdf with each hardcopy, I know Cubicle 7 certainly does
[20:24] <+Kenneth_Hite> FlipperBuzzbomb Pelgrane, at least, offers free PDFs with physical book purchases.
[20:25] <+Eloy-3EG> Free PDF with print purchase just makes sense. done and done.
[20:25] <+BenRogers> I'm right there with FlipperBuzzBomb - however, not all of my business partners are on board with that idea. I've been urging us to go to PDF free with print copy - but we currently sit at $1 for it.
[20:25] <+ian_stewart> Flipper, you read my mind. A very similar model ahs worked well for Marvel Comics.
[20:25] <+NathanRMaher> FlipperBuzzBomb - That's a great question.  Might be something for me to consider when putting everything together.  Makes sense to me.
[20:25] <+Brad_Elliott> I would at this point were I to publish again, I think.
[20:25] <+DavidFChapman> I really like the "free PDF with physical purchase" thing. Great idea. Especially when your rulebook weighs a metric ton.
[20:25] <+Rpgpundit> bootlegging, actual piracy, where someone is taking your work and SELLING it, that's something different.
[20:25] <+LynneH> Modiphius certainly does free pdfs with hard copies
[20:25] <+Brad_Elliott> PDF with purchase, that is.
[20:25] <+JasonHolmgren> @Flipperbuzzbomb, DriveThruRPG requires us to charge extra for PDF+book, but they let us price it at just $1 more than just-book.  I can't speak for other sellers.  I think you're right, you should get the PDF with the book.
[20:25] <+TRA-Preston> FlipperBuzzbomb Print+PDF is the only way things should be. A lot of people will justify pirating the PDF because they purchased the phyiscal book anyways. ...not that I've ever done that...
[20:25] <+LeeGarvin> I think free pdfs with hardcopy is perfectly reasonable business model.
[20:25] <+Peregrine> Its mainly becasue plenty of pdf buyers might buy the book later, but few people wit hthe book will buy the pdf later so you may as well hand one over
[20:26] <+BenRogers> Basically, my personal mindset is that if the price of the PDF exceeds $15, then I want a physical copy - and a free (or $1 cheap) PDF with it.
[20:26] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> It's a very good idea indeed.
[20:26] <+Tim_Dugger> FlipperBuzzbomb: I have 3 diifferent versions of my game in PDF (the game content is identical, the PDF features are not). I offer the least expensive one as a freebie for purchasing the print version on RPGNow, and the other two can be purchased at half normal cost
[20:26] <+JeffCombos> @FlipperBuzzbomb: I looked into that a couple years ago, and the biggest issue is getting the unique download codes into the book. If you put the PDF on a disk, that's fine, but it encourages sharing it. Going the code route is better, but you have to make it unique and you have to keep it safe.
[20:26] <+JasonMHardy> I think getting PDFs with print purchase is a good thing.
[20:26] <+Rpgpundit> Lords of Olympus includes the PDF with the book purchase. Arrows of Indra sadly doesn't because the publisher of that game (Bedrock) isn't able to do so.
[20:26] <+BrettMBernstein> All my physical books come with free PDFs when ordered directly. I don't charge more to get both. Plus, I offer the PDF at a base price, and then let you just pay the difference to get the physical book. Also, I'll give you a PDF if you purchased the physical book elsewhere.
[20:26] <+NathanRMaher> Maybe a coupon from Drive Thru RPG $1 off when purchasing Hard Cover and PDF
[20:26] <+Eloy-3EG> I actually found that I have sold more by giving the PDF away with a print purchase than I did before, so I'd never go back to the original model.
[20:26] <+BenRogers> And I like to apply that mindset to our products - but I don't hold the purse-strings and I'm beholden to others.
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[20:26] <+JMThompson_BPI> I think C7 is one of the few companies that I have bought a book in PDF and then gone back and bought the print at full price.
[20:27] <+JMThompson_BPI> Just because I am in a hurry to get copies of the book :D
[20:27] <@Abstruse> Just a reminder for the audience, if you would like to join the audience channel to ask a question, type /j #rpgnet-audience and don't forget to set your username with /nick NewNameHere
[20:27] <+JamesSutton> I think it's a great idea, but when dealing with licensed properties, sometimes you can't (as noted by others, sometimes as a publisher you don't get to set all of the rules).
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[20:28] <+JayLittle> a good example of a licensing requirement - Star Wars roleplaying products
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[20:28] * +BenRogers has a question for the audience: Art is expensive. That's what drives the price of our products, mostly.  Would you prefer RPGs with fewer images if you could get them cheaper? Or do the pictures help spur your creativity?
[20:28] <~Dan> QUESTION: <nick> Is hybridization with Board Game / Card Game mechanics healthy or detrimental to the future of the hobby?
[20:28] <+GeorgeVasilakos> healthy
[20:28] <+BrentNewhall> Healthy.
[20:28] <+Brad_Elliott> I'm afraid that's very true... though I've been fortunate in the past with licensing agreements.
[20:28] <+Andrew_Peregrine> If it works, any new idea is worth a look
[20:28] <~Dan> (BenRogers: The audience doesn't have voice in here. ;) )
[20:28] <+JMThompson_BPI> Also for awhile there I think C7 had to quit selling TOR pdfs
[20:28] <+JasonMHardy> Healthy. If people are playing, it's good.
[20:28] <+BenRogers> Depends on the board/card game and the RPG.
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[20:29] <+JayLittle> hah! having been accused of "boardgamifying" roleplaying games to death -- i think there are a lot of hobby gaming ideas that can apply to any aspect of gaming.
[20:29] <+Andrew_Peregrine> We're selling pdfs for TOR now, that issue has been sorted I beleive
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[20:29] <+JasonHolmgren> @nick , mostly unhealthy.  For example, Warhammer Fantasy RPG went from a lauded 2nd edition to a 3rd eidtion that not only costs $100USD, but only permits FOUR PLAYERS.
[20:29] <+TimKirk> Nick: That depends a lot on the game, honestly. I think it can be healthy but you have to be careful, I've seen card mechanics for resolutons where the mechanic for resolving actions draw attention on themselves over the "playing the person.." and that's detrimental
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[20:29] <+DavidFChapman> I do like some of the card/board mechanics.
[20:29] <+NathanRMaher> Nick - I'm doing that right now!  I think its fun and amazing.  Just think of games like Cards Against Humanity that skyrocketed in popularity.  People love card games because its simple and everyone recognizes what they are.  I think it would be great in a game.  *cough* Spooks!
[20:29] <+LeeGarvin> BTW, folks, FlipperBuzzBomb is the name of a PC in one of my earliest playtests of Tales. I'm pretty sure that one of my players is sitting in here with us. (His character is one of the very few to have everbeen barred from the Floating Vagabond.)
[20:29] <+Rpgpundit> nick: if you mean things like WFRP 3e and the recent Star Wars travesty, unhealthy for the hobby itself. Though no doubt profitable for the companies in question or they'd stop doing it.  But those games barely qualify as RPGs anymore.
[20:29] <+BrettMBernstein> I think the hybridization is a good bridge between RPG and boardgames, so that it taps into both markets, but it also limited both markets.
[20:29] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I think WH£ got unfairly charged with being a board game
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[20:29] <+LynneH> Again, we're back to making sure that the mechanic fits the game and isn't just a sales or jumping on the bandwaggon gimmick
[20:29] <+JMThompson_BPI> I did say I think for awhile I thought yall had stopped selling them. I knew they were currently available... I keep buying the dang things :D
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[20:30] <+JayLittle> interesting -- have those who are referencing WFRP or Star Wars RPG played either system?
[20:30] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I think actually things are gonig the other way with board games taking on more role-playing concepts
[20:30] <+Ken_Spencer> For me, both as a writer and a consumer, mechanics are always secondary to setting. New ideas are good, but not at the expense of other aspects of a product.
[20:30] <+BenRogers> Audience members who want to answer my question: ben at
[20:30] <+NathanRMaher> Magic the Gathering was a huge love of mine, untill I realized I couldn't compete with people who had healthier salaries.
[20:30] <+Brad_Elliott> I'm with LynneH on this front - can work, but it should be carefully done.
[20:30] <+JasonHolmgren> Some games might work with special props, and it's nice if they include those props in the box. (Another shout out to Dr. Who!)  But earlier we talked about RPGs being geared more towards realms of imagination, and more pieces means more gamery-ness and less improv.
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[20:30] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Regarding the hybridization issue, I don't see it as good OR bad... it just *is*. Mechanics are mechanics and if they further the goal of the game, it's all good.
[20:30] <+BrentNewhall> (I've also asked BenRogers's question in #rpgnet-audience if folks want to look at responses there.)
[20:30] <+Tim_Dugger> +1 LynneH
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[20:31] <+Eloy-3EG> Bringing in any elements that make games more fun is healthy.
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[20:31] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I played WFRP in all the editions and thought 3 was fine. If you like the new Star Wars its the same concept and no one seems to be calling that a board game :) But what kept us playing WFRP 3 was the adventures were excellent
[20:31] <+LeeGarvin> Ben, I've always felt that no art is better than bad art, and artists deserve to get paid. Which sometimes means that a book is delayed, but that's the price of doing business.
[20:31] <+BenRogers> I tend to go the opposite way with boardgames and RPGs.  Boardgames are very "locked down" when it comes to what you can do - I've brought RPG rules into boardgames to make the boardgames more enjoyable.
[20:31] <+NathanRMaher> I think the marvel superheros game with cards was a lot of fun.
[20:31] <+JayLittle> i think done properly, it can make a game more accessible to a wider potential audience
[20:31] <+JamesSutton> +1 LynneH
[20:31] <+JasonHolmgren> As for art... a lot of RPG art is 'farmed' (that is, going through Deviantart or whatnot and just buying random pictures) or otherwise lacks cohesive direction.  With our games, we've always had very hands-on art direction and made the books a cohesive whole, and I can say that it has helped our sales and our players.
[20:32] <+JasonMHardy> "Done properly" is an important term. Some things are done poorly, but that does not necessarily invalidate and entire concept.
[20:32] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Absolutly <Lynne H>
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[20:32] <+Kenneth_Hite> +1 CynthiaCelesteMiller
[20:32] <+JasonHolmgren> A game like MARVEL SAGA can work with props, especially if it's harmonious from the ground up.  But silliness like GAMMA WORLD 4th didn't do anyone any favors.
[20:32] <~Dan> QUESTION: <Dan> On the flipside of the coin, I pretty much only play online these days (via IRC, to be specific). Do you see a need for tabletop RPGs to help facilitate that sort of gaming?
[20:32] <+TimKirk> Indeed Jason.
[20:32] <+JayLittle> Marvel SAGA with the cards might be my favorite way a theme is expressed in a roleplaying game -- those mechanics with the cardplay did a wonderful job delivering a super hero feel for the game.
[20:32] <+Brad_Elliott> +1 JasonHolmgren
[20:33] <+Rpgpundit> "boardgaming" an RPG reduces emulation by getting people thinking more and more about their little tokens and game pieces. Its specifically anti-emulative, and therefore harmful to the RPG experience as it reduces capacity for Immersion.
[20:33] <+DavidFChapman> In answer to BenRogers question, I do like some good art - it's a big selling point for me as a consumer. Numenera caught my eye initially because of the art and graphic design, so it worked just getting me to look at the game to begin with (then you read who did it and you're sold!)
[20:33] <+JasonHolmgren> @Dan, I'm shocked that there are people who say they can play DOTA2 or WOW, but they can't play a tabletop game.
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[20:33] <+TimKirk> Dan: Yes, I think more games need to realize that certain mechanics don't work except in person and need to make sure a game is playable in a variety of interactions: FTF, PBP, IRC, Hangouts, and more.
[20:33] <@Abstruse> Dan: Yes. I can't get my gaming table to look up from their stupid smartphones and play the friggin' game, so if I can force them to have an app open that relates to the game instead of Candy Crush, I'm all for it.
[20:33] <+GeorgeVasilakos> thats bewcause they do not know how to socially interact with people not at a computer
[20:33] <+Andrew_Peregrine> If people are playing games in a new way, we should be looking at helping them do that. LARP managed to grow pretty well on its own without any industry help though
[20:33] <+TRA-Preston> Dan Everything online is the way the future is going
[20:33] <+TimKirk> As to Marvel Saga: Its one of my groups second favorite supers game.
[20:33] <+Rpgpundit> Dan: I think that people who play via G+ hangouts etc are adapting the tech available to the games; so there's little need to do it the other way around.
[20:33] <+JasonMHardy> Dan -- I think options are good. The more tools people have to help them play, the better. So I think having tools to facilitate internet gaming is a good thing.
[20:34] <+NathanRMaher> Dan - Some people are just more "visual" than they are "imaginative".  I think people enjoy having physical representations and maps and the like to make the game more enjoyable.  Some add music... I like hanging out with people and watching them react to my funny voices and antics.
[20:34] <+JasonHolmgren> there's already been talk about making games simpler and more accessible, and that's a good thing.  Games that REQUIRE boards, such as D&D4, won't be very playable on IRC.  It's good to see D&D5 and the like reaching out to abstract play.
[20:34] <+JasonMHardy> I don't want to replace face-to-face--just add other options.
[20:34] <+JeffCombos> The more ways people can play your game (online, in person, etc.) the more people are likely to play your game. But aside from providing rules and such for online play, it's an expensive format to create for unless you're sure you can make money off it.
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[20:34] <+TRA-Preston> G+ Hangouts, Obsidian Portal, Roll20 are all great ways gaming is being taken online
[20:34] <+Rpgpundit> anyways, dan, my condolences. Speaking as someone with 3 separate gaming groups and dozens of real life players right now.
[20:34] <+JMThompson_BPI> I have no electronics at the table....except where its needed because of medical reasons  (ie I allow a player his laptop because he cant see the text and has to zoom in the book)
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[20:34] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I think most tabletop RPGs function perfectly for online gaming as is. However, I do see more and more games moving toward mechanics that embrace Skype/whatever gaming mnore fully in the future.
[20:34] <+Kenneth_Hite> Dan: I think virtual tabletop spaces are improving faster than anything a game publisher could do to accelerate that. Our job is just to stay as accessible to that kind of play as we can.
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[20:34] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I think the social aspect of gaming is the big draw. But you hear of a lot of groups that get split up and can only game together via the web
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[20:34] <+BrentNewhall> +1 Kenneth_Hite
[20:34] <+Tim_Dugger> regardless of the medium of play, the "tabletop" games are there to provide structure and rules that help shape the game. Those rules can be adjusted or supplemented, but having them as a core is always a good starting place
[20:35] <~Dan> Rpgpundit: Actually? I really enjoy playing online. I enjoy in-person, too, but I love hanging out with my online friends.
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[20:35] <+TimKirk> I've found Obsidian Portals recent (to me) upgrades as something that is helping my online play a GOOD stuff.
[20:35] <+JamesSutton> +1 Kenneth_Hite
[20:35] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Agreed, Kenneth.
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[20:35] <+Rpgpundit> Dan: I know, I know, lots of people say they prefer it.  I have one  guy who plays in my DCC game, who hadn't played in an in-person game in years.
[20:35] <+TRA-Preston> I just wish I could get my real life players onto Obsidian Portal.
[20:35] <+Brad_Elliott> +1 KennethHite
[20:35] <+Tim_Dugger> +1 Kenneth_Hite
[20:35] <+Rpgpundit> but I just can't get into it for the life of me.
[20:35] <~Dan> QUESTION: <yammahoper> QUESTION: what is the best untapped license out there?
[20:36] <+GeorgeVasilakos> heh
[20:36] <+ian_stewart> Teletubbies.
[20:36] <+JayLittle> Harry Potter
[20:36] <+BrentNewhall> Yeah, Harry Potter
[20:36] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> My Little Pony?
[20:36] <+BrettMBernstein> A decent Star Trek RPG
[20:36] <+Andrew_Peregrine> +1 Harry Potter
[20:36] <+Kenneth_Hite> Yammahoper Magic: the Gathering
[20:36] <+JayLittle> my kids -- and the kids of almost all my peers -- would go as ape for it as the adults
[20:36] <+LeeGarvin> Get Smart
[20:36] <+BrentNewhall> Though I'd like to take a crack at Dune.
[20:36] <+Tim_Dugger> personally, I don't like licenses, as they place restrictions on what you can and cannot do
[20:36] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I'd love to do the Terminator
[20:36] <+JasonMHardy> Tough to give an answer other than Harry Potter.
[20:36] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I'm going with Magic: tG.
[20:36] <+LynneH> The one that no-one realises until someone else does it and it's a smash ;)
[20:36] <+Ken_Spencer> Honorverse
[20:36] <+Eloy-3EG> Little Rascals?
[20:36] <+Brad_Elliott> Phineas & Ferb! (not seriously, but I do like that show...)
[20:36] <+NathanRMaher> Hi, my name is Nathan, and I haven't played table top roleplaying games since 2009 and I've been in the heavest withdrawal of my life.  I don't know how much more I can take :/
[20:36] <+Kenneth_Hite> Yammahoper And of course Harry Potter.
[20:36] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> But why hasn't anyone done a Sons of Anarchy RPG, dammit? :)
[20:37] <+JayLittle> +1 Phineas & Ferb
[20:37] <+Rpgpundit> yammahopper: its kind of the wrong question.  The point isn't whether a license has been done before or not but HOW its done.  I'm tempted to say "Game of Thrones". Because if WoTC did Game of Thrones and used a decent adaptation of D&D for it, it would be really huge.
[20:37] <+DavidFChapman> Harry Potter. I would do the game for free, give the proceeds to JRK's charity, just for the chance of writing that.
[20:37] <+BrentNewhall> That or Downton Abbey.
[20:37] <@Abstruse> Avatar: The Last Airbender or the Codex Alera for me. So much potential in either one for an RPG.
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[20:37] <+TimKirk> I've no idea. Licenses are a tricky business, and I'm more interested in my own creations than trying to do stuff like that--beyond an old game I'm trying to ressurrect, or Thundarr! Darn it!
[20:37] <+Rpgpundit> Never mind that there were two GoT games before.
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[20:37] <+GeorgeVasilakos> Fantasy: Magic: the Gatheringarry Potter, Star Trek
[20:37] <+JasonHolmgren> +yammahoper: Neopets.
[20:37] <+GeorgeVasilakos> oops
[20:37] <+JeffCombos> Breaking Bad. And the best part is you can use the extra bits around the house to *actually cook meth!*
[20:37] <+BenRogers> I have a voice again! (Thanks Dan!)
[20:37] <+NathanRMaher> Loom TM RPG from Lucas Arts/Disney.  Would be amazing.
[20:37] <+JayLittle> Avatar: The Last Airbender, done right, could be the coolest game Evar
[20:37] <+JasonMHardy> Though I have to say I'm a little too buried in the license I'm working on to think about other ones.
[20:37] <+JasonHolmgren> Why Hasbro/WotC never made a d20 neopets is beyond me.
[20:37] <+Ken_Spencer> +1 Thundarr!
[20:37] <+JMThompson_BPI> I only go for the licenses i personally want to do, which may or may not be popular to others.
[20:37] <+LeeGarvin> Ooh! Land of the Lost!
[20:37] <+TRA-Preston> Magic the Gathering would make a really interesting rpg
[20:37] <+BenRogers> +1 Thundarr!
[20:37] <+GeorgeVasilakos> Fantasy genre: Magic the gathering, Modern Setting: Harry Potter, SciFi setting: Star Trek
[20:38] <+Brad_Elliott> +1 LeeGarvin
[20:38] <+JamesSutton> Harry Potter
[20:38] <+JMThompson_BPI> If they can make a movie they can make an RPG :D
[20:38] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Original properties do much better (Vampire, Shadowrun etc) but licences are a good way to get new gamers into the fold and introduce people to something they already know
[20:38] <@Abstruse> JasonHolmgren: They tried thrice. Corporate politics happened, according to the rumor.
[20:38] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Thundarr was my main reason for designing Cartoon Action Hour. Just sayin'. :)
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[20:38] <+JeffCombos> +1 JayLittle: Avatar could be very cool if done right.
[20:38] <+Brad_Elliott> Agreed, JeffCombos.
[20:38] <+JayLittle> That was from Abstruse - can't believe I hadn't thought of it earlier myself!
[20:38] <+NathanRMaher> I wonder if you could make an RPG that relies on searching for public domain images and slapping them down in the middle of a story and having the storyteller have to incorporate it.
[20:39] <+DavidFChapman> James Bond...
[20:39] <+TimKirk> My friends adapt stuff for their home games, they've done Naruto, Soul Eater and Avatar with my systems (I wasn't a player in any of them.)
[20:39] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Thats really the key I think, its not the licence but how you make the game that really makes it do well. We've seen plenty of failed licences that didn't reflect the setting properly
[20:39] <+JasonHolmgren> I'm giving away corporate strategy here, but my company made IRONCLAW because 'furry games' were an under-served market. If Hasbro had ever made d20 Neopets, they would have cornered that market at more, and it would've cost them almost nothing since they own both d20 and Neopets.
[20:39] <+Andrew_Peregrine> +1 James Bond too!
[20:39] <+LynneH> In that case, looks like we're looking at something with kittens and porn NathanRMaher :)
[20:39] <+BrentNewhall> Oh man, Soul Eater. *Yes.*
[20:39] <+Rpgpundit> I'm trying to get the license for the official "Freemasonry: the RPG" from the United Grand Lodge of England. Problem is even if I do get it, I won't be able to tell any of you about it.
[20:39] <+Brad_Elliott> Nathan - We could call it 'Wastelands of Damnation' and make a mint! Oh, nuts, somebody beat us to it.
[20:39] <+TimKirk> A licensed Transformers game might be cool.
[20:39] <+Andrew_Peregrine> We could call it Facebook LynneH
[20:40] <+BrettMBernstein> Rpgpundit, good one.
[20:40] <+Tim_Dugger> Rpgpundit: ROFL
[20:40] <+NathanRMaher> LynneH yes... but how should stats be served?
[20:40] <+BrentNewhall> I'm surprised there aren't more licensed anime RPGs, come to that. Bleach, Naruto, One Piece.
[20:40] <@Abstruse> QUESTION <ErrantShade> General question: Is it acceptable and reasonable during conventions for publishers to demand their published materials be sold only by them? Abstruse: I believe the question is about some publishers forbidding vendors from selling their products at the con, like local comic stores with a booth and the like.
[20:40] <+JayLittle> Why would I want fewer people selling my product than more? The more venues offering it, the greater chances someone will buy / play / have / use / enjoy it
[20:40] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Its only a problem if the vendor is undercutting them! :)
[20:40] <+Kenneth_Hite> ErrantShade I know it's standard practice at some cons, so it must be acceptable. I don't know how reasonable it is.
[20:41] <+TimKirk> Errantshade: What? No. If they have my books, that money gets back to me (unlikely many vendors would have them, but still.)
[20:41] <+BrettMBernstein> I think the more people selling your product at a con, the better. I don't see any of my stuff getting over-saturated :)
[20:41] <+JMThompson_BPI> Brent, thats because costs are generally prohibitive.
[20:41] <+BenRogers> If any of your other publishers and retailers have a desire to sell Sixcess Core at Gen Con, please send me a note and I'll set you up! :D
[20:41] <+Tim_Dugger> No, some folks at conventions are retailers, so they should be able to sell as well, however, it should be reasonable to expect that said retailers NOT undercut the publisher..
[20:41] <+BrentNewhall> JMThompson_BPI: Ah, yeah, good point. Good ol' Japanese licensing costs.
[20:41] <+NathanRMaher> Abstruse I think they just want to ensure their brand is being properly represented.  Some people may think they are part of the company.
[20:41] <+ian_stewart> Unless they tried to undercut me, I'd never hastle the other vendors.
[20:41] <+JasonHolmgren> @Errantshade, Origins and GenCon have an enforceable policy that a publisher can refuse to let other vendors, at the show, sell their products. ... In practice, it's pretty silly to enforce that. :D
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[20:41] <+DavidFChapman> I don't get to conventions... :(
[20:41] <+Andrew_Peregrine> We've never had a problem with retailers at a con selling Cubicle 7 stuff
[20:41] <+JasonMHardy> ErrantShade: Seems over the top to me to object to other people selling your books. I think I'd only have a problem if they were selling books they stole from our booth …
[20:41] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> It's all about visibility, in my opinion. I want as much exposure as possible for our games. Therefore, the more vendors selling them, the happier I am.
[20:41] <+GeorgeVasilakos> we let everone who vends at a convention sell our product
[20:42] <+Andrew_Peregrine> One of the many reasons people come to cons is to meet the designers anyway, which will bring them to the publishers stand
[20:42] <+Rpgpundit> man, those were excellent gnocci!
[20:42] <+Tim_Dugger> besides, you tick off the vendor, and the won't carry your stuff anymore...
[20:42] <+Tim_Dugger> hehe
[20:42] <+Rpgpundit> Currently Smoking: Mastro de Paja Bent Billiard + Rattray's Marlin Flake
[20:42] <~Dan> QUESTION: <xyphoid_> q: around here, the fastest-growing slot at rpg conventions by far is parlour-style larps - is that a growth space for hte industry? the designers don't seem to overlap
[20:42] <+JasonHolmgren> Seriously, anyone in publishing should've already made their money by wholesaling to other vendors in the first place. Enforcing the 'only we can sell it' is just to raise the margins, and attending conventions should be a visibility exercise, yes.
[20:43] <+JeffCombos> The more places your products are in a convention, the more visibility you have. But I generally run a special deal or offer something extra for sales at my booth so people will generally but from me.
[20:43] <+ian_stewart> Well, need to fetch the wife from work. It's been fun, though!
[20:43] <+GeorgeVasilakos> I have RPG proposals on my computer for Bladerunner, Record of Lodoss Wars, and James Bond.... all three genre products I think the industry would really tap into.
[20:43] <+Rpgpundit> bah, too many publisher/industry questions, let's have some controversy!
[20:43] <+TimKirk> Xyphoid: Possibly, if I ever had an idea for one, I'd write it.
[20:43] <+LynneH> Bye Ian!
[20:43] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Depends how big your LARP areas are! I'd suggest it might also be a logistical issue
[20:43] <+BenRogers> "Parlour-style LARPs"?  O_o  Huh.  I never woulda thunkit.  *shrug* I don't have anything to support that, but I encourage anyone who's into it to enjoy themselves! :)
[20:43] <+ian_stewart> Adios!
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[20:43] <+LynneH> How well do LARP rules sell?
[20:43] <+JMThompson_BPI> Wasnt there a Lodoss War RPG already?
[20:43] <+TimKirk> Ooh Record of Lodoss Wars, D&D by Japan.
[20:44] <+TimKirk> Yeah, in Japan.
[20:44] <+GeorgeVasilakos> not in the US
[20:44] <+JasonMHardy> Xyphoid: I don't know if LARPs are ever going to be a huge growth space, but I think that sort of thing is good to encourage. We've been adapting some LARP rules, and also talking to some people who run LARP events, though, to help people play that way.
[20:44] <+NathanRMaher> Xyphoid - I don't think adding LARP to games is bad.  I've had fun with it in the past.  I'll be adding LARP rules to my game - simple rules for a simple game  ^_^
[20:44] <+Rpgpundit> There was a Lodoss War RPG: It was called the D&D Rules Cyclopedia
[20:44] <+JasonHolmgren> @xyphoid_, I'd have to say that Fiasco has shown that style of gaming is pretty popular. I'd suggest that parlour-style has limited genres. It's way easier to pretend to be humans, or vampires, or investigators... than, say, to pretend to be aliens or ogres or other combat-heavy RPGs.
[20:44] <+TRA-Preston> Do you need LARP rules? I haven't participated in a LARP before but I didn't think it was a rule heavy kind of atmosphere
[20:44] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> What are "parlour style" LARPS? How do they differ from regular LARPS?
[20:44] <+LynneH> We do a lot of LARP, and we tend to go to tabletop for things we can't LARP
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[20:44] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Adding LARP rules is tricky. Being a good RPG designer does not make you a good LARP designer and vice versa
[20:44] <+LynneH> (All as part of the same campaign)
[20:45] <+BrettMBernstein> My Active Exploits Diceless RPG has LARP rules built in. It's old now, but had a number of people using it to LARP. I don't know about know. So I can see a definite area to grow there.
[20:45] <+BenRogers> I was at a con once where the Vampire LARP had a cops called on them...  Funny story.  I'll happily relate it over a drink at a con if anyone is interested. :)
[20:45] <+JasonHolmgren> @Cynthia, I think it means smaller-scale games, with 4-6 players... as opposed to the 20 or more than can show up to Camarilla-style LARPs.
[20:45] <+BrentNewhall> (Parlour LARPs are self-contained one-shots that generally focus on interpersonal character dynamics.)
[20:45] <+Rpgpundit> Sixcess Core may or may not be a great game; but it is certainly a good book to roll flake tobacco on.
[20:45] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Ah, I see. Thanks for the explanation.
[20:45] <+TimKirk> Sort of like "How to host a Murdery Mystery"
[20:45] <+Andrew_Peregrine> More towards the Nordic LARP end then?
[20:45] <+JasonHolmgren> Like 'How to Host a Murder'?
[20:45] <+JeffCombos> My Ubiquity rules were initially designed to cover LARPs as well. I had this crazy idea that you could sit down to play or stand up and LARP smoothly. But in the end, it was better to focus on doing one thing than trying to add something core gamers might not want.
[20:45] <+BenRogers> Pundit, I actually enjoy using Sixcess to hold my hookah. ;)
[20:46] <+Tim_Dugger> @TimKirk -- that also popped to mind as a perfect example of a "self contained LARP"
[20:46] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Running Slasher Flick for Ben and his crew while they had the hookah out is an experience every GM should have. :)
[20:46] <+NathanRMaher> TRA-Preston I think you need a substitute for die rolls and a means not to look up rules.  I remember my first Vampire game, people encouraged me to buy the rule book but I was chastised by everyone for leaving the book out for a breach of the masquerade.  I was so confused.
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[20:47] <+BenRogers> Cynthia, that was fun!  I just wish we'd finished earlier and enjoyed the game more. :)  That was the night before Gen Con 2013.  Such fun! :)
[20:47] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> We were all so very worn out. :)
[20:47] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Most LARPers seem to write their own systems anyway, so I'm not sure they really need us to put a system in for them :)
[20:47] <+JasonHolmgren> LARPs need to provide structure and moderation-of-conflict. Otherwise, you can fall into a cops-and-robbers situation of 'Bang i shot you!' / 'No, you missed', etc.
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[20:48] <+BrentNewhall> None of my players are comfortable with LARPing. I'm not sure what to think or do about that.
[20:48] <+NathanRMaher> JasonHolmgren you forget my force field.  Bullets richocette!
[20:48] <+DavidFChapman> My next game is about dreamsharing, so I guess a LARP of it would be a room full of people asleep...
[20:48] *** Dan sets mode +v BradElliott
[20:48] <+LynneH> You can't go far wrong with rock, paper, scissors and everyone having one thing they're the best at ;)
[20:48] * +JasonHolmgren arghs, killed by ricochet. x.x
[20:48] <+NathanRMaher> richochet spelling of doom
[20:48] <+JMThompson_BPI> I only did a LARP once, back in 1995....didnt really care for it personally, but I can see the appeal for many.
[20:49] <+JasonHolmgren> @Brent, it's just a different style of roleplaying. Some people like the gambling risk that comes with dice, of pushing your character further.
[20:49] <+JamesSutton> That Rick O'Shea ... he gets around.
[20:49] <+TimKirk> I larped a bit. My sister was a HUGe Camarilla person locally, but it didn't stick with me.
[20:49] <+NathanRMaher> Wait... Richocette is a combination of a ricochet and a machette.
[20:49] <+BrentNewhall> JasonHolmgren: Yeah, true.
[20:49] <+BenRogers> Pundit, you're a tobacco aficionado, do you only smoke cigar leaf?  Or do you also enjoy the flavored shisha for hookahs?
[20:49] <+BradElliott> I hear you, JMThompson. I actually played in some of the earlier Mind's Eye Vamp games down in North San Diego.
[20:49] <+Tim_Dugger> HOly Bouncing Blades, Batman!
[20:49] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I love the speed of LARP, you have to think on your feet a lot more
[20:49] <+JasonHolmgren> LARP is more concerned with your role. It's why LARP adapts very easily to role-centric games like Vampire, and not so well to goal-centric games like D&D.
[20:49] <~Dan> QUESTION: <Yog_Sothoth> Q: Who is one designer you wished was still designing pen and paper games?
[20:49] <+DavidFChapman> Then again, if I hadn't been in the Camarilla, I'd have never met Andy P and Angus, and if I hadn't known Angus, I doubt there would be a Doctor Who RPG...
[20:49] <+LynneH> Couldn't get away with the Camarilla stuff, but we've been part of a home-brew LARP campaign for nearly 2 decades now
[20:49] <+BrentNewhall> I'd like to see tabletop games that bridge the gap with LARPing, moving more into that performance arena. I think Fiasco points in that direction.
[20:50] <+BenRogers> Gary Gygax
[20:50] <+BradElliott> Rich Dansky, for one.
[20:50] <+PEGShane> Jeff Grubb
[20:50] <+JasonMHardy> Yog_Sothoth: Nigel Findley.
[20:50] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Back atcha DavidFChapman :)
[20:50] <+TimKirk> Jeff Grubb
[20:50] <+NathanRMaher> +1 BenRogers
[20:50] <+Ken_Spencer> +1 Gygax
[20:50] <+BradElliott> Yeah, more Nigel Findley would be good, if only we could.
[20:50] <+JayLittle> Jeff Grubb
[20:50] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Jeff Grubb, for sure. And I wish Rick Swan was still active in the industry. I miss his wit.
[20:50] <+JasonHolmgren> Aaron Allston.
[20:50] <+DavidFChapman> CJ Carella
[20:50] <@Abstruse> Nigel Findley was a master.
[20:50] <+JayLittle> heck, anyone from the Marvel FASERIP days
[20:50] <+TimKirk> Indeed.
[20:50] <+Tim_Dugger> Stephen Sechi
[20:50] <+BenRogers> Who was the one who did the original Shadowrun?  Tom Dowd!  Him!
[20:50] <+BrettMBernstein> Greg Costikyan
[20:50] <+GeorgeVasilakos> CJ Carella
[20:50] <+BradElliott> Ray Winninger...
[20:50] <+LeeGarvin> +1 Nigel Findley. Taken much too soon.
[20:50] <+Andrew_Peregrine> +1 CJ
[20:51] <+BrettMBernstein> Yes, Ray Winninger
[20:51] <+BrentNewhall> Professor Barker.
[20:51] <+NathanRMaher> Bruce Nesmith
[20:51] <+JamesSutton> Nigel Findley
[20:51] <+JasonMHardy> BenRogers: Tom Dowd teaches gaming now, so his thoughts are still out there (though it's more video gaming).
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[20:51] <+Kenneth_Hite> Greg Stafford.
[20:51] *** Dan sets mode +v SeanPatrickFannon
[20:51] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Hello, sorry I'm late
[20:51] <~Dan> Welcom, Sean!
[20:51] <+Rpgpundit> Ben: I do sometimes smoke cigar leaf. I had a hookah years ago but got rid of it, too much work.
[20:51] <+BradElliott> JasonMHardy - no coincidence when so many gaming folks ended up in the various MMO and other video game companies...
[20:51] <+LynneH> Morning Sean
[20:51] <+BrentNewhall> Hey, Sean!
[20:51] <+BradElliott> Howdy, Sean!
[20:51] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Hey there, Sean!
[20:51] <+DavidFChapman> Greg Costikyan... man, the encouraging rejection letter of my Ghostbusters RPG scenario back in the 80's kept me trying to get into the industry...
[20:51] <+Kenneth_Hite> +1 Costikyan.
[20:51] <+Tim_Dugger> make him stand in the corner for being late, Dan
[20:52] <+GeorgeVasilakos> Hi Sean
[20:52] <+BenRogers> Tom Dowd inspired me. I'd like to meet him one day.
[20:52] <+Eloy-3EG> yo Sean!
[20:52] <+Rpgpundit> Yog sothoth: Erick Wujcik. :(
[20:52] <+BradElliott> John Tynes!
[20:52] <+Kenneth_Hite> Hey Sean!
[20:52] <+LeeGarvin> Hi Sean!
[20:52] <~Dan> QUESTION: <JoshuaMeadows> Q: What has been your most memorable learning experience in the rpg industry?
[20:52] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Can't I sit in the corner? Standing ain't so good for these old bones. ;-)
[20:52] <+Rpgpundit> Without a doubt the single biggest influence on me as an RPG designer, and as a game master.
[20:52] <+BenRogers> Pundit, Hookahs are a lot of work, I agree.  Probably what keeps me from using it too much and saves my lungs! LOL
[20:52] <+JMThompson_BPI> +1 rpgpundit
[20:52] <+NathanRMaher> I remember at the age of 12 sending a manuscript to TSR for a novel idea and getting a rather lengthy response... now no one responds :/
[20:52] <@Abstruse> Sean!
[20:52] <+Kenneth_Hite> JoshuaMeadows: designing two Star Trek RPGs back to back.
[20:53] <+BradElliott> To the question? Working GenCon - all the hundreds of hours of demos. Dealing with gamers from all over, and having a great time.
[20:53] <+GeorgeVasilakos> working at Last Unicorn Games/Decipher
[20:53] <+BenRogers> Okay, is Margaret Weis still here?  I'm not sure if I can tell you my most memorable moment if she is....
[20:53] <+Andrew_Peregrine> The slow realisation that being a gamer for many years had taught me nothing at all about the games industry! :)
[20:53] <~Dan> She's not.
[20:53] <+BenRogers> Okay, so here's the tale...
[20:53] <+JayLittle> receiving my first death threat -- it showed me people take their games very seriously, for good or ill
[20:53] <+LeeGarvin> Joshua, Getting fired from my dream job.
[20:53] <+Tim_Dugger> releasing HARP only to have new players find things that playtesters had missed for many months
[20:53] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Trying - and failing - to run the first game company I was in charge of. Obsidian Studios. I learned so much from that!
[20:53] <+JasonMHardy> JoshuaMeadows: Tough to choose. Cons, SR5, and the Catalyst difficulties of 2010 taught me a lot.
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[20:53] <+Rpgpundit> Joshua: I guess working on Forward to Adventure, my first RPG. It forced me to refine a lot of my thinking. Plus I realized that I was already well known enough that I could write and other people would be interested in doing the publishing part for me.
[20:53] <+BradElliott> Being told that I was someone's 'Nemesis' at my first GenCon.
[20:53] <+NathanRMaher> JoshuaMeadows - The power of Crowd Funding is a very humbling experience and the power of what a single person can do to inspire hundreds.
[20:53] <+LynneH> The Achtung! Cthulu Kickstarter - quite a learning curve
[20:53] <+JasonHolmgren> @JoshuaMeadows, you mean, a moment I can say in polite company? ... I'll say it was when Kevin Seimbieda came by our table and told us he liked our book. =D
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[20:54] <+Eloy-3EG> I've been doing the RPG thing by myself for long enough to know that you should totally not do it by yourself if you can help it.
[20:54] <+DavidFChapman> Emailing the Department of Homeland Security for info for Conspiracy X 2.0...
[20:54] <+TimKirk> Learning that game designers were just people like me, and their rules were not anymore set in stone than my own..i.e learning that I could fix broken rules (and I don't mean house rulling for fun, but things that weren't working as intended)
[20:54] <+Rpgpundit> Jay little: I've gotten those. Someone wished me cancer last year.
[20:54] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Victoriana 2nd Edition, everything was a struggle, it was as if fate didn't want us to do it! :)
[20:54] <+BradElliott> Being present when Andrew Greenberg told a couple of very rude LARPers, "See if I ever design you another RPG for you again!"
[20:54] <+BenRogers> I am not a D&D gamer.  Never was.  No experience with D&D.  No clue who the people are in D&D.  (I've learned more over the years.) When I first met Margaret, I didn't know who she was.  There I was in a crowd of fanboys and I said "Margaret who?" as I shook her hand.
[20:54] <+BrettMBernstein> A number of computer crashes tested my mettle. Yes, you can rebuild and rewrite. It's not the end of the world.
[20:54] <+JasonMHardy> Andrew_Peregrine: I know how projects like that feel!
[20:54] <+JeffCombos> Every day I'm learning something new about games, the industry, and running a small game company. And usually that learning comes on the heals of fixing something I've cocked up beyond words.
[20:54] <+JamesSutton> @JayLittle, RPGPundit: Seriously?
[20:54] <+JMThompson_BPI> Ive not yet been threatened, but did get bad reviews from someone I fired off a project. Thats about as bad as its gotten.
[20:54] <+JayLittle> i even got a death threat while i was in the hospital, recovering from my second heart attack
[20:55] <+BradElliott> Oh - Meeting Steve Darlington.  :)
[20:55] <+JayLittle> i have received 14 death threats
[20:55] <+JamesSutton> I thought my experience was nasty.
[20:55] <+GeorgeVasilakos> oO
[20:55] <+Ken_Spencer> When my first work came back from Pyramid magazine with the direction to make it less academic, dealing with that first honest critique was very important.
[20:55] <+Rpgpundit> James: yes, seriously.
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[20:55] <+SeanPatrickFannon> My time at GAMA and at DriveThruRPG were also extraordinarily educational experiences
[20:55] <+LeeGarvin> Jay, yikes!
[20:55] <+JamesSutton>
[20:55] <+BrentNewhall> Holy guacamole, Jay!
[20:55] <+BrentNewhall> :-(
[20:55] <+LynneH> Blimey...
[20:55] <+BradElliott> Yeah, Sean - GAMA is very educational.
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[20:55] <+BradElliott> Dang, Jay...
[20:55] <+TimKirk> Poor Jay.
[20:55] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Most memorable learning experience? Hmmm. There have been so many. To pull a valuable one out of think air, I'll say that it was my initial fear of people hating my work when I was on the verge of releasing my first game. I was petrified! Then, a friend told me that it didn't matter as long as I was happy with the game. It was a great lesson.
[20:55] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Am I doing something wrong that I've not had my life threatened?
[20:55] * +TimKirk hugs Jay for good measure.
[20:55] <+JasonMHardy> That's a lot of threats. There are people who wish I were dead, but I don't think they've directly threatened to make that happen.
[20:56] <@Abstruse> JayLittle: What for, if I may ask?
[20:56] <+JayLittle> 11 of the 14 were for my work on Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3rd Edition -- people are *very* passionate about their favorite games.
[20:56] <+Rpgpundit> Fortunately my recent physical shows me in perfect health in spite of my heavy smoking, eating whatever I want, ignoring all notions of diet or exercise, staying up most nights, and generally being as hedonistic as all f----
[20:56] <+NathanRMaher> JayLittle if you work on an RPG about dead people and you get death threats on it, does that count as a double negative?
[20:56] <~Dan> (Not that I'm an industry person, but I'd answer "Phil Brucato telling me I single-handedly almost destroyed his game." :) )
[20:56] <+JasonMHardy> SeanPatrickFannon: I'M TOTALLY GOING TO TAKE YOU OUT!
[20:56] <+JasonMHardy> There you go. You're important now.
[20:56] <+BradElliott> I haven't either, Sean. Had somebody write me a nastygram in the form of a 'game review' once, but that hardly counts.
[20:56] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Thank you, @JasonMHardy
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[20:56] <@Abstruse> JasonMHardy: Well I'm just glad you didn't read my Shadowrun 2050 review then :p
[20:56] <+BenRogers> Dan, to be fair, you can be a tad harsh with your reviews sometimes. ;)
[20:56] <+SeanPatrickFannon> I do feel more relevant now
[20:56] <+JasonMHardy> I'm here to help.
[20:56] <~Dan> <.<
[20:57] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I had a death threat because of the music my band plays (death metal).
[20:57] <+JasonMHardy> Who says I didn't, Abstruse?
[20:57] <+Rpgpundit> In fact, just a sec.. Jay, I didn't send you a death threat, did I? Just checking...
[20:57] <+SeanPatrickFannon> <-- trying to remember all his old chat commands, and failing
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[20:57] <+PEGShane> I've only received death threats when working at video game companies. They also took pictures of my children from Facebook and said nasty things about them as well.
[20:57] <+GeorgeVasilakos> oO
[20:57] <+BradElliott> Dang, Shane. That SUCKS>
[20:57] <+BenRogers> Cynthia, don't you actually sing -- or *growl* -- death threats while you play? ;)
[20:57] <+BrentNewhall> This chat has been my most memorable learning experience so far, I think.
[20:57] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Jaybus, Shane!
[20:57] <+JayLittle> i don't think so... after a while, they stopped scaring the hell out of me
[20:57] <+JMThompson_BPI> I dont really go looking for reviews of my products anymore. They usually just drive my blood pressure up while I wonder if the reviewer actually read the book.
[20:57] <+LeeGarvin> Shane, Jeez!
[20:57] <+NathanRMaher> PEGShane funny you say that, I always tell people that their pictures of their children on facebook are targets. Very scary stuff.
[20:57] <+BenRogers> Shane, that's ... not ... right... :(
[20:58] <+JeffCombos> PEGShane: That's terrible!
[20:58] <+BrentNewhall> Ugh.
[20:58] <+JasonMHardy> Yeah, anything involving family is soooo far over the line.
[20:58] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Haha! No. I'm a terrible vocalist. I keep my yap shut and play drums. :)
[20:58] <+PEGShane> I try not to let a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch. It's hard some days.
[20:58] <@Abstruse> SeanPatrickFannon: /me is the action command, if that's what you were looking for.
[20:58] <~Dan> QUESTION: <JoshuaMeadows> Q: What mistake have you made that you wish you could go back and change?
[20:58] <+BradElliott> I agree with you, Nathan. One of my oldest friends never allows his child's picture on FB for that very reason.
[20:58] <+Rpgpundit> I revel in it. In the contempt, the bile, the delicious delicious tears of impotent rage. It means I'm winning.
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[20:58] <+TimKirk> Its sad that one bad review hurts more than the tons of good ones make up for.
[20:58] <+GeorgeVasilakos> Annoucning unfinished product
[20:58] <+JasonHolmgren> @JoshuaMeadows: ALL OF THEM.
[20:58] <+Tim_Dugger> never got a death threat, but did have a group (which included the brother in law of the owner of the IP the company I worked for managed) spend about 2 years trying to destroy all credibility I had with that game
[20:58] <+Andrew_Peregrine> It is such a shame that while most gamers are amazing people, a few make you weep for humanity.
[20:58] <+JamesSutton> My most memorable learning experience(s)? Meeting game designers that made games I've GM'd for decades (literally) and being able to sit down and compare notes and work out that they all made mistakes sometimes, got things right sometimes, and generally had gone through all the things I was going through. And realizing that it's part of the growth process.
[20:58] <+BenRogers> Dan, you know mine.  I'd go back to that meeting and tell them all "NO! I don't care how 'realistic' you want this world! That won't work!"
[20:59] * ~Dan chuckles
[20:59] <+JayLittle> i've been able to learn from a lot of my mistakes, and i still ended up here -- which is a pretty good place... so i don't think i'd change anything
[20:59] <+SeanPatrickFannon> @JoshuaMeadows - Any time I let fans and customers down, I regret it.
[20:59] <+JasonHolmgren> But since I can't, then you go forward and do it better the second time.
[20:59] <+TimKirk> Being unable to make H&S1E the game it should have been at the time, because of "life." It still is an awesome game, IMHO, but it needed more of "me" in it.
[20:59] <+BradElliott> Hah, that's easy. When I didn't catch an Indesign Error before final upload of the WotG Companion and the whole print run was ruined.
[20:59] <+Ken_Spencer> There are a couple of companies I have worked with who made big promises, used up a ton of my time, and then refused to pay out. They still have my words, and one day I will get them back.
[20:59] <+LeeGarvin> Angered the Powers That Be at Avalon Hill, and got removed from their GenCon crew.
[20:59] <+NathanRMaher> I'm probably going to get death threats from the Edison family... Thomas Edison is not a Ghoul!
[20:59] <+JasonMHardy> JoshuaMeadows: There were some hasty and ill-informed forum posts I made that I should not have. And also, all the rest of the mistakes I have made.
[20:59] <+JayLittle> TimKirk is 10000% right... no matter how many positive, glowing reviews something receives, it's those few negative ones that haunt me
[21:00] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I suspect we're all learned something from forums one way or another! :)
[21:00] <+Eloy-3EG> You know the crazy thing about telling people where you think you faltered is that they usually haven't picked up on. "Oh, I hope you like the casserole, but I may have put too much salt" is the easiest way to get an "Aw, it tastes fine", but they might have said it tasted "Awesome" had you said nothing.
[21:00] <+BrettMBernstein> I would change how I dealt with some people. My people skills have grown immensely.
[21:00] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Regarding mistakes, I've made plenty of them, but I'm glad that I did, because otherwise, I wouldn't have learned anything from them.
[21:00] <+Tim_Dugger> my biggest mistake -- not getting a written contract for HARP (ROOKIE mistake), and while I trusted the guy who became my boss, his losing the license lost any chance of my ever getting paid for it...
[21:00] <+DavidFChapman> @JoshuaMeadows - I took a back seat from RPGs for a bit because I thought I should do something else (which was a really stupid idea). Big mistake.
[21:00] <+BradElliott> +1 CynthiaCelesteMiller
[21:00] * +JasonHolmgren nodnods to Cynthia.
[21:00] * +SeanPatrickFannon thinks back on more than a few unintentionally hurt feelings
[21:00] <+BenRogers> LeeGarvin, that sounds like a story! Let's have a drink at Gen Con and swap stories... I'll tell you how I started a pen-pal relationship with Gary Gygax by telling him I was once his worst enemy and you tell me about Avalon Hill. :)
[21:01] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Oh, wow, almost forgot - I nearly lost Shaintar forever through an idiotic agreement
[21:01] <+NathanRMaher> Well gang I need to bow out and eat something before hibernating in front of a TV and waking for my day job.  It's been great!
[21:01] <+LeeGarvin> Ben, it is a tale of much woe.
[21:01] <~Dan> Thanks, Nathan! Take care!
[21:01] <+TimKirk> Later Nathan.
[21:01] <+LynneH> Night, Nathan
[21:01] <+JMThompson_BPI> Later Nathan
[21:01] <+BenRogers> Lee, mine is more humorous.  The drinks should even it all out. ;)
[21:01] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Take care!
[21:01] <+NathanRMaher> It was great to meet everyone!
[21:01] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Had the man I nearly lost it to not decided to have a "Grinch's Heart Grew" moment, I'd have never gotten it back
[21:01] <+BradElliott> Bye, Nathan!
[21:01] <+NathanRMaher> :D
[21:01] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Bye, Nathan.
[21:01] <+BrentNewhall> +1 CynthiaCelesteMiller
[21:01] <+JamesSutton> Joshua: Mistake? Mistakes... Probably the way I handled some people situations and hard decisions that lead me to where I am now. Having said that, they lead me to where I am now. Which is the happiest I have been in a very long time. But I regret how I handled things.
[21:01] <+Ken_Spencer> One more, waiting until I was thrity-five to start writing role-playing games.
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[21:01] <+BenRogers> SeanPatrickFannon.  I didn't realize you were in here.  Hey! :)
[21:01] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Night, Nathan
[21:02] <+LeeGarvin> Ben, you're on.
[21:02] * +SeanPatrickFannon humbly bows to Ben Rogers
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[21:02] <+BrentNewhall> "I don't want my pain taken away! I need my pain!"
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[21:02] <+SeanPatrickFannon> I am, truly, honored to be in on this. Thanks to Dan for setting it up
[21:02] <+JamesSutton> Also, I regret the decision to not fly to Mordor and drop the ring into Mount Doom. Stupid jewelry...
[21:02] <~Dan> Thanks for being here, Sean!
[21:02] <+Rpgpundit> I've made a lot of mistakes in how I've GMed games over the years, but that's how I've gone on to learn.  That's the problem with systems that basically remove GM-autonomy to the point he can't be a "bad GM", it means you'll never have good GMs.
[21:03] <+JMThompson_BPI> Why does Sean get green text? Im jealous
[21:03] <+GeorgeVasilakos> hhhmmm
[21:03] <+Rpgpundit> You should be honored, Sean!
[21:03] <+GeorgeVasilakos> color
[21:03] <@Abstruse> JamesSutton: Eh, the Nazgul would've just hopped on the Fell Beasts and taken you out of the sky...
[21:03] <+BradElliott> Ah, JamesSutton - so it's YOUR fault we all sweat our lives away in the Great Satanic Mills of Mordor?
[21:03] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Yes indeed, Sean. Three cheers for Dan Davenport, king of kings!
[21:03] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Huzzah!
[21:03] <~Dan> Awwwww... :D
[21:03] <+BradElliott> Thanks, Dan! Wish I'd made it sooner.
[21:03] <+SeanPatrickFannon> That's the first thing I figured out in the command thing below, JM
[21:03] <+JamesSutton> You should thank me for helping get rid of the Hobbit problem.
[21:03] <+LynneH> Yes, Dan is a sweetie :)
[21:03] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I'm picking purple!
[21:03] <+Rpgpundit> Yes, well done Davenport.
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[21:04] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Hobbit problem? I thought it was the dang Tribbles again?
[21:04] <+TimKirk> Dan is awesome.
[21:04] <+LynneH> You can pick purple?
[21:04] <+BrentNewhall> Yeah, this has been a fantastic chat.
[21:04] <+JasonMHardy> Yes, thanks to Dan for setting this up and letting me be a part of it!
[21:04] <~Dan> Hey, you guys give me the chance to hang out with my gaming heroes. It's hardly a chore for me. :)
[21:04] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Its mine now
[21:04] <+TimKirk>  You can do a lot of colors
[21:04] <+GeorgeVasilakos> heh
[21:04] <+JeffCombos> Thanks, Dan. It's been a great chat!
[21:04] <+LynneH> Oh yes, the colours button
[21:04] <~Dan> Just a reminder that we have another hour to go for those willing and able!
[21:04] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> @Dan: Awwwww, shucks. *hugs*
[21:04] <+SeanPatrickFannon> So let me throw a question out there, then...
[21:04] <@Abstruse> QUESTION <JoshuaMeadows> Q: Design Question?  Do you do a lot of math design in your mechanics, or do you just try something out and tweak it later.
[21:04] <+LynneH> Argh, that's going to make my eyes bleed at this time of the morning
[21:04] <+Ken_Spencer> Why didn't I notice this earlier!
[21:04] <+JasonHolmgren> I think I can do 30.
[21:04] <+BenRogers> Pundit, I would *love* for you to come to Gen Con and run some Sixcess.  :)  Any chance you can make it? :)
[21:04] <+JamesSutton> Mine was the voice that convinced the NZ government to issue the great Hobbit cull, leading to the financing of The Hobbit movies.
[21:04] <+LeeGarvin> Well, folks, there's only so much my medications can do. I'm fading faster than an albino's tan. Time to say good night.
[21:04] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Tablets - a fad, or the wave of the gaming table future?
[21:05] <+JMThompson_BPI> So I guess you had an extra spot Dan, or I wouldnt be here :D
[21:05] <~Dan> Sleep well, Lee! I'm glad you're doing better!
[21:05] <+TimKirk> I try a lot of things out, see if it works, if it doesn't and I think it should I goto math.
[21:05] <+JasonHolmgren> @JoshuaMeadows, you cannot release a modern RPG without doing all the math. The modern internet will punish you.
[21:05] <+Rpgpundit> I'll probably be here until long after that. I notice, though, having snuck onto the Audience section, that you're skipping some of the more juicy controversial questions.
[21:05] <+JamesSutton> Think one would get some thanks from that "Sir" Peter Jackson? Sheesh...
[21:05] <+BenRogers> Sean, they're here to stay until we get the implants in our eyes...
[21:05] <+JeffCombos> I'm out also. I still have a lot of editing to do tonight.
[21:05] <+Eloy-3EG> Write it up, Tweak it. Rewrite, tweak. Rewrite, tweak. Rewrite, tweak. Rewrite, tweak. Rewrite, tweak.  Until it feel right.
[21:05] <+TRA-Preston> JoshuaMeadows I try something that sounds fun first, then later go back to tweak the math of it
[21:05] <+Rpgpundit> Maybe we'll have to do a "blue" performance after-hours.
[21:05] <+BenRogers> ...sometime in 2015.
[21:05] <+BrentNewhall> I try something and tweak it later, but I've developed a decent eye for mechanics that are badly imbalanced.
[21:05] <+LynneH> Night, Lee
[21:05] <+Andrew_Peregrine> If a system requires too much maths I tend to try and figure out something else :)
[21:05] <~Dan> Bye, Jeff! Have a good one!
[21:05] <+JayLittle> i am a math nut for boardgames, but not quite as much for RPGs ... and you gotta' start somewhere, so mock it up and give it a whirl
[21:05] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Math schmath! Seriously, I only worry about the math once I nail down the overall mechanics.
[21:05] <+GeorgeVasilakos> design it first - then playtest it to work the kinks out
[21:05] <+JeffCombos> Good night all!
[21:05] <@Abstruse> SeanPatrickFannon: As a tech guy, they're not going anywhere. Designers need to start looping at app developers to integrate them fully at the table rather than being a distraction.
[21:05] <+JasonHolmgren> All of our RPGs are tested to destruction, to 0.5% certainty. Then we hide the math from  you.
[21:05] <+JasonMHardy> JoshuaMeadows: Both. I think having a good spine of math is important, but it's also important to try out the math and then tweak it. And sometimes I do it backwards--find something that feels right, then design math for it.
[21:05] <+LynneH> I'm rubbish at maths, so I try to come up with something and test it, then tweak
[21:05] <+Eloy-3EG> Bye Jeff!
[21:05] <+Rpgpundit> Joshua: I try to avoid math as much as possible; instead I have a very good playtester who does the hard work  in that area for me.
[21:05] <+JMThompson_BPI> Im a liberal arts major, so I try to stay away from math rpgs :D
[21:05] <+DavidFChapman> I did a lot of math working-out for WILD, while trying to create the system. But I think it's going to be the playtesting that really refines what works...
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[21:06] <+JasonHolmgren> did I mention I was the creator of JOE GENERO, the comic strip where we made fun of bad math in RPGs? =D
[21:06] <+LynneH> Night, Jeff
[21:06] <+JMThompson_BPI> Night Jeff
[21:06] <+JayLittle> for me, the biggest math issue is this: "how often should an average character with average skills succeed at an average task?"
[21:06] <+Kenneth_Hite> JoshuaMeadows: Not a big fan of math-heavy systems, so I usually interpolate and let it go. Helps that I'm seldom designing the core engine by myself.
[21:06] <+JayLittle> later jeff
[21:06] <+TimKirk> Playtest is a BIG thing.
[21:06] <+BradElliott> Ah yes, Jason Holmgren in the wild!  :)  I liked Joe Genero... he was always fun.
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[21:06] <+Ken_Spencer> I playtest a lot, and one of my playtesters is a math hobbyist (really math is his main hobby). He points out things for me, such as the continue lizard monkey problem with the Boon Companion trait.
[21:06] <+BrettMBernstein> JayLittle, yes.
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[21:06] <+SeanPatrickFannon> I go for applying the basic stuff at the center, then intuit the hell out of it.
[21:06] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Platesting is the real test. Even if you test all the probability, that won't tell you how fun it is to play or what results the players expect or enjoy
[21:06] <+Tim_Dugger> JoshuaMeadows: For some things, I do out the math (spreadsheets are my friend), but for other things, I often go by feel initially and then go from there.
[21:06] <+BrentNewhall> Is playtesting the most important task in game design?
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[21:07] <+SeanPatrickFannon> *Then* I hand it over to my rocket scientist buddies and have them math it to death
[21:07] <+BradElliott> It's certainly a BIG one, BrentNewhall.
[21:07] <+Eloy-3EG> playtesting is uber-importante.
[21:07] <+Rpgpundit> No. Good design in the first place is the most important task.
[21:07] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> In my opinion, playtesting is probably the most important step.
[21:07] <+TimKirk> Huge.
[21:07] <+JMThompson_BPI> I think so, it all looks good on paper. Playtesting is where you get to see if it looks good in practice.. Well in theory anyway.
[21:07] <+LynneH> It's very important - just because you think you know how something works doesn't mean it does
[21:07] <+JasonHolmgren> @BrentNewhall, playtesting is the most important task in game design.
[21:07] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Playtesting is one of the most overlooked aspects.
[21:07] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Or at least almost the most important step.
[21:07] <+Rpgpundit> Playtesting is for tweaking the rough edges
[21:07] <+Andrew_Peregrine> What makes it tricky is that its all important. You skimp on one bit and it always shows
[21:07] <+BradElliott> Your design can be as good or as beautiful as you like, then shatter into a thousand pieces in a playtest.
[21:07] <+Ken_Spencer> Playtesting is key, it shows which ideas were only good to you and not to others. It also picks up your mistakes, like the aforementioned infinite lizard monkeys issue.
[21:07] <@Abstruse> Since it's come up, here's another QUESTION: <Yog_Sothoth> Q: Tell us about your most awful playtest session and what you did to recover from it?
[21:07] <+Kenneth_Hite> SeanPatrickFannon Tablets are here to stay. We're just waiting for app design to be cheap or easy enough that us humanities nerds can do it.
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[21:08] <+BenRogers> +1 Kenneth Hite
[21:08] <+Rpgpundit> Of course, maybe the difference is that the games I make tend to be orthodox in design, and not trying some faddish new mechanics; so in a sense, they've already been playtested for decades
[21:08] <+JasonHolmgren> Why should YOU play a game that the DESIGNERS didn't even play? :P
[21:08] <+SeanPatrickFannon> @Kenneth_Hite - I could not agree with you more, sir.
[21:08] <+JamesSutton> +1 Kenneth Hite
[21:08] <+JMThompson_BPI> Just once I would like a different member of my gaming group run the game we are playtesting.
[21:08] <+BradElliott> +1JasonHolmgren
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[21:09] <+BrentNewhall> JasonHolmgren: The designers didn't have time; they were choosing the right font!
[21:09] <+JMThompson_BPI> Oh yes. I wont let a game out that I havent played myself. If I am going to publish it, then I am going to play it.
[21:09] <+SeanPatrickFannon> I've never had an "awful" playtest - they've always pointed out exactly what needed to be seen
[21:09] <+DavidFChapman> SeanPatrickFannon - yeah, I briefly mentioned earlier, I'd love to see rulebooks done as interactive Apps, like the Harry Potter Film Wizardry book is an App. Videos embedded, examples of play, animated things, and hard to pirate.
[21:09] <+GeorgeVasilakos> First draft of the City of Heroes RPG - came in - sent it toplaytesters - they HATED it - then hired CJ Carella to redo it from scratch. Only to get the project lost in the separation of Cryptic Studios and NCsoft :s
[21:09] <+Andrew_Peregrine> My worst was a game of Angel, not becasue of the game but becasue we expected different things from the setting. I wanted to run a detective game, my players seemed to want to smash things with their superpowers. In the end we played something else sadly.
[21:09] <+JasonMHardy> Yog_Sothoth: We were trying a kind of action point system for Shadowrun 5 combat, which had a lot of interesting possibilities including flattening the difference between fast and slow characters and adding cool defense options [cont'd]
[21:09] <+Rpgpundit> Its one of the great things the OSR has taught (but which extends beyond the OSR too): You don't need to be "gimmicky" or try to reinvent the wheel in order to be innovative. Real Innovation starts from using what is already established to work, and putting a new spin on it.
[21:09] <+JayLittle> playtesting rpgs is a tricky task -- a great GM can make any system sing... so it's important to establish good guidelines on what you're looking to get out of playtesting
[21:09] <+LynneH> I've been really lucky with playtest sessions for my games. But we're playtested other people's games that haven't gone well
[21:09] <+BradElliott> Ouch, GeorgeVasilakos
[21:09] <+TRA-Preston> GeorgeVasilakos I always wondered what happened with that
[21:09] <+Ken_Spencer> When I was working on Bokors and Broadsides (soon to be renamed before Chaosium releases it) I designed an intricate and detailed age of sail combat system. I confused and bored the players to no end, and frustrated myself because to me it was fun, yet to them it was paperwork.
[21:09] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> The most disastrous playtest session I ever had was for an early version of Macabre Tales. We had 6 players and it was a nightmare from start to finish. I was so glad when it was over, but I learned a lot from it. It showed me that the system would work best for 1-3 players and was one reason I focused on the "1 player - 1 GM" setup.
[21:09] <+JasonHolmgren> @GeorgeVasilakos, the tabletop City of Heroes was one the games I looked forward to. I'm sorry to hear that.
[21:10] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Some of th eworst playtests are actually more useful as they've shown you the flaws you need to fix
[21:10] <+JasonMHardy> But playtests, both internal and external, showed it was making combat slow down to a crawl, and the last thing I wanted to do with Shadowrun combat is slow it down. So a painful play test and subsequent reports showed my that system was not to be.
[21:10] <+DavidFChapman> What CJ did with City of Heroes was awesome, George. Real shame it never saw light of day.
[21:10] <+GeorgeVasilakos> One copy exists. Its on my shelf. heh.
[21:10] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Of course, to be fair, until very, *very* recently, all my design work has been for existing systems.
[21:10] <+TimKirk> I have playtested many a games for myself and others. I remember M&M2E and its "FEATman.." which I thought was terrible
[21:10] <+BradElliott> Andrew_Peregrine speaks the truth found out that one the hard way, back in the day of WotG.
[21:10] <+JasonHolmgren> Bit of a tangent -- the best gaming advice you will ever read: (Link:
[21:10] <+SeanPatrickFannon> And *that*, my friends, is what we call a "teaser."
[21:10] <+GeorgeVasilakos> I think its more rare than the Dune RPG
[21:11] * +SeanPatrickFannon whistles tunelessly, looking up at the ceiling.
[21:11] <+JMThompson_BPI> I know in one case I had to rewrite the way magic worked in a fantasy game because it failed in playtest. OMG was it a spectacular failure though.
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[21:11] * +BrentNewhall leans forward.
[21:11] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I would possibly kill for the Dune supplements
[21:11] * +JMThompson_BPI has two copies of the DUNE RPG
[21:11] * +LynneH has the Dune RPG. Somewhere.
[21:11] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I'm one of only two people I know who actually played the Dune RPG. It was damn good
[21:12] <+BenRogers> I don't so much want to own the Dune RPG as to read it to see how they handled various things from the book.
[21:12] <+BrentNewhall> Ditto BenRogers
[21:12] <+JasonHolmgren> +1 JMThompson_BPI . That's how it's done -- you play it, and if it works, hooray. And if it doesn't, you rewrite it.
[21:12] <+Rpgpundit> brb
[21:12] <+Tim_Dugger> hm.. my worst playtest failure came up in an RM game, where a profession I created -- thought it would be fun/versatile, turned out to be too powerful... and kinda ruined things a bit
[21:12] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I loved that two or more people could play a Mentat and have very different characters
[21:12] <+JasonHolmgren> Seriously, you gamers are PAYING us to tell YOU how to play MAKE-BELIEVE. It's our responsibility as game designers to figure out what make-believes work and what doesn't... otherwise, you're paying us for stuff you could've done yourself.
[21:12] <+JMThompson_BPI> Andrew: Up until recently I had a semi regular game of Dune going... half the group got deployed. So now we are playing something else.
[21:12] <~Dan> QUESTION: <Dan> I know how some of you will answer this, but do you prefer to create a system with a specific setting in mind?
[21:13] <+TimKirk> Indeeed Jason, well said.
[21:13] <+Andrew_Peregrine> JMThompson thankyou! I am not alone! :)
[21:13] <+BradElliott> +1JasonHolmgren
[21:13] <+JasonHolmgren> @Dan, there is no such thing as the setting-independent system. The rules will, by their nature, enforce some setting decisions over others.
[21:13] <+SeanPatrickFannon> +1 Jason
[21:13] <+JMThompson_BPI> I always start working on system with setting in mind. I want the system to fit the setting. So even if the system is an established one I will rewrite it to make it reflect the setting
[21:13] <+BrentNewhall> No preference. Some settings sing in a well-established rule system. Others cry out for their own rules.
[21:13] <+TimKirk> Yes, Dan, I do. I prefer custom systems for settings. However, if a system works well enough and is flecible enough, it might suit other settings I dream up as well.
[21:14] <+TRA-Preston> Dan Settings and Systems, in my opinion, have to be in harmony with each other. If a system is too generic you wont feel like you are actually playing in the Setting
[21:14] <+JamesSutton> +1 BrentNewhall
[21:14] <+TimKirk> flexible*
[21:14] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I start with setting, then figure out who the characters might be, then start thinknig about system.
[21:14] <+JasonMHardy> Dan: Yes. How I'm trying to make the setting feel will play a role in the rules. At least that's my experience so far.
[21:14] <+JayLittle> a few times i've had a mechanic i wanted to find a theme to use, but by and large, there's a setting established and then mechanics are designed to best express that setting.
[21:14] <+BradElliott> Rules encourage behavior. Therefore, your rules should encourage not just behavior in your fictional world, but give you feel of how that world works.
[21:14] <+BenRogers> I consider a system to be totally agnostic of setting -- except where setting specific elements need a system for resolution.  Bladedancers in ElfWood need a system to identify how they use blades in their dancing - but, truly, any system could do it.
[21:14] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Although sometimes a system you read will give you an idea for a game that would work really well with it
[21:14] <+LynneH> I'm with TRA-Preston - setting and system can't be fighting each other, or the whole thing falls flat
[21:14] <+JasonHolmgren> There are some systems that are more *flexible* than others, such as d20 or World of Darkness, or Savage Worlds, but you will have to pick some rules that will make certain things more likely. And in this quest to simplify, you will have to keep ONLY the rules that are appropriate.
[21:14] <+Tim_Dugger> Dan: any game will have some built in assumptions to them... however, if doing a game for a specific setting, I am a firm believer that the rules SHOULD be bent to the setting, never the other way
[21:14] <+SeanPatrickFannon> I am more about *genre* orientation, rather than specific setting.
[21:14] <+DavidFChapman> @Dan Doctor Who was created (systemwise) to try to reflect what happens in the show (talking down a fight, guns being lethal). The system I'm working on for WILD needs to be pretty "you can use it anywhere for anything" so it's less setting specific
[21:14] <+Ken_Spencer> I am not a big fan of doing system work and prefer to take a setting and find a system that can be modified to work. I just hope that Dave Chapman doesn't mind what Rocket Age did with the Vortex system.
[21:14] <+Kenneth_Hite> Dan, I prefer to create settings and adapt them to systems that have a pre-existing audience. If the setting is well built, it can be played in any decent system.
[21:15] <+Rpgpundit> Back!
[21:15] <~Dan> wb, Pundit!
[21:15] <+DavidFChapman> @Ken_Spencer - as long as it works, go for it!!!
[21:15] <+JasonHolmgren> More shout-outs for Dr.Who! It's fantastic for simulating Dr. Who! Not so much for dungeon crawling. =D
[21:15] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Not to bring up our genre emulation approach yet again, but each game is designed using whatever "reality" exists within the genre we're emulating. For example, in Slasher Flick, we had to make people *want* to have their characters do stupid things like go into the woods alone. On the opposite end, with Capes, Cowls and Villains Foul, we had to base (cont.).
[21:15] <+Eloy-3EG> system and setting MUST match.
[21:15] <+JMThompson_BPI> I was using vortex to run fantasy for awhile.
[21:15] <+Rpgpundit> Dan: yes, generally I create system to match the setting.
[21:15] <+BenRogers> Kenneth Hite, you said it more concisely than I did - totally agree.
[21:15] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> every mechanic on the reality presented in superhero comics.
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[21:16] <+BradElliott> Kenneth_Hite: Well said, and also reflected in the increasing number of games that when Kickstarted, get multiple implementations in various rulesets, a la FATE and so on.
[21:16] <+JasonHolmgren> +1 cynthia, totally.
[21:16] <~Dan> On a related note...
[21:16] <~Dan> QUESTION: <xyphoid_> q: what's your favourite weird or innovative mechanic from a game you didn't write
[21:16] <@Abstruse> (Crap, was 2 seconds from posting that one myself...)
[21:16] <+BrentNewhall> Dread's Jenga tower.
[21:16] <+SeanPatrickFannon> My plans for my *Modern Gods* supers setting (my "what I would have done with the Champions Universe" setting) will ultimately be expressed in multiple supers rules
[21:16] <+JasonMHardy> BrentNewhall: Good call. That's a cool one.
[21:16] <+Kenneth_Hite> If the setting then turns out to need some special rules to enhance specific feel, it's easy enough to write those rules in SW, FATE, BRP, OSR, etc etc etc
[21:16] <+DavidFChapman> Alas Vegas' TAROT card resolution.
[21:16] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Using goals and relationships as statistics in Smallville
[21:16] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Our dominoes from Macabre Tales was a fun thing.
[21:17] <+BenRogers> Ken, you wrote a modern horror book a decade ago...  Unearthed Arcana?  Was that it?
[21:17] <+Rpgpundit> those are all terrible.
[21:17] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Oh, crud. I just realized you said from games we DIDN'T write. Doh!
[21:17] <+JayLittle> the One Roll Engine, suit trumping in Marvel SAGA, and Everway's use of Tarot.
[21:17] <+LynneH> When our LARP GM replaced the beads in a  bag mechanic with tiny cupcakes in different coloured casings...
[21:17] * ~Dan chuckles
[21:17] <+JasonHolmgren> @xyphoid , ugh, there's so many. I love Dr.Who's mechanic of using Story Points for weird powers and gadgets.  It's the first game that incentivizes building NORMAL people.
[21:17] <+JamesSutton> Everyway
[21:17] <+JamesSutton> Everway, I mean
[21:17] <+Kenneth_Hite> xyphoid_ Everything in Fiasco.
[21:17] <+Rpgpundit> The only really innovative mechanic in the history of RPGs was Erick Wujcik creating a functional diceless system.
[21:17] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I'd have to say I love the DIS in Sixcess! Cool stuff!
[21:17] <+SeanPatrickFannon> The entire scaling system (APs) from the original DC Heroes - still one of the most magnificent designs ever
[21:17] <+JamesSutton> Ooooh yes, Amber
[21:18] <+BradElliott> The card mechanic in TORG, from long ago. Loved that - so flexible and useful.
[21:18] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Doctor Who throwing away hit points and wounds by taking damage directly on statistics. Genius DavidFChapman
[21:18] <+Ken_Spencer> Not weird, but right now I am reading Trail of Cthulhu, and the way abilities, especially investigative abilities, greatly interests me, and I'm not a systems guy.
[21:18] <+TRA-Preston> xyphoid there is a rule in Unhallowed Metropolis for cooking grenades. You have to make a willpower roll in order to do it, otherwise you throw it early.
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[21:18] <+JMThompson_BPI> Thats funny, Im reading Trail of Cthulhu right now too.
[21:18] <+BenRogers> <Kenneth Hite> Did you write Unearthed Arcana?  And did it use a "psychosis" mechanic to determine how nutsoid a character was becoming?
[21:18] <+Rpgpundit> andrew: seriously?  You know that was borrowed from Traveller, right?
[21:18] <+SeanPatrickFannon> My choice counts more as innovative than weird, true
[21:18] <+Tim_Dugger> potion miscability table -- original AD&D -- one of my all-time favorites!
[21:18] <+BradElliott> I'm also learning GUMSHOE in Night's Black Agents... definitely innovative.
[21:18] <+Kenneth_Hite> BenRogers Nope. A decade ago I was writing GURPS Horror and Star Trek.
[21:18] <+DavidFChapman> Thanks guys - Andrew_Peregrine and JasonHolmgren
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[21:18] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Ah yes, i suppose it was
[21:19] <+BradElliott> Tim Dugger: KABOOM! <oops with potions>
[21:19] <+Tim_Dugger> BenRogers: Ken wrote "Nightmares of Mine" for RM.... very very good book!!
[21:19] <+BenRogers> <Kenneth Hite> I thought you wrote that.  Hrm.  Anyway, I really liked it.
[21:19] <+DavidFChapman> You say borrowed, I say "homage"...
[21:19] <+Rpgpundit> Tim: Potion miscibility was great; but I sure wish that there had been MORE stuff like that in the original AD&D.  Its an area where the OSR has contributed a lot.
[21:19] <+LynneH> Nice to see you channeling RTD there, David :)
[21:19] <+BenRogers> Cynthia, thanks for your plug for the DIS.  :)  I just like the players to have a little unexpected control that the GM has to juggle. :)  Makes it fun for me, as a GM.
[21:19] <+TimKirk> Marvel Saga: Cards/Trumping/Edge. Beyond that, I'm not sure.
[21:19] <+Rpgpundit> borrowed is homage. Nothing wrong with borrowing.
[21:20] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I remember thinking I'd been amazing with Victoriana making you roll combat as an opposed test between fighters rather than they hit you hit. Then I played Pendragon again and realised where it had come from!
[21:20] * +Ken_Spencer taking the dog out, be back in a few
[21:20] <+JasonHolmgren> Immature designers borrow. Mature designers steal. =D
[21:20] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Gotta bio - BRB
[21:20] <+BradElliott> Just be sure to leave your knife, Jason.  :)
[21:20] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I also dug Castle Falkenstein's use of cards.
[21:20] <+Kenneth_Hite> Arcana Unearthed was 2004, but that was Monte.
[21:20] <+DavidFChapman> Good to see something rubbed off from RTD... though I only met him for about 2 minutes...
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[21:20] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I also loved Judge Dredd's system of all your skills being your attributes. Very swift character gen!
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[21:21] <+TimKirk> I love Dr. Who's the way.
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[21:21] <+BenRogers> Not Unearthed Arcana....  Something "UA" that was modern horror... Had "pornomancy" in it...
[21:21] <+Andrew_Peregrine> 2 minutes more than I've had Dave! :)
[21:21] <+JasonHolmgren> Unknown Armies = UA.
[21:21] <+GeorgeVasilakos> Unknown Armies
[21:21] <+BenRogers> That's it!
[21:21] <+BenRogers> Unknown Armies!
[21:21] <+Rpgpundit> timkirk: I love Dr.Who's initiative too. It comes from RC D&D>
[21:21] <+Kenneth_Hite> Unknown Armies. I wrote little tiny bits in the corners; Greg Stolze designed the rules engine.
[21:21] <+BradElliott> UA - seriously good writing from John Tynes, there. Loved that.
[21:21] <+BenRogers> That game had a wicked cool psychosis system that I really wanted to steal cart-blanche.  :)
[21:22] <+TimKirk> Yeah. Just like Traveller has the "stats take damage" thing...
[21:22] <+BradElliott> And Kenneth Hite, of course! (Credit where credit is due.)
[21:22] <+JamesSutton> For innovative, probably the RuneQuest Resistance Table.
[21:22] <+Kenneth_Hite> BradElliott Credit is pretty much mostly due to Greg and John.
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[21:22] <+JMThompson_BPI> Ive been reading Nazi Occult and using it as reference for an upcoming game.
[21:22] <+JasonHolmgren> new World of Darkness has a number of innovations, such as the Vice/Virtue/Willpower system, and the much-maligned Morality system.
[21:22] <+TimKirk> It's amazing how many GOOD mechanics are out there.
[21:22] <+Rpgpundit> Tim: well, David can say what he likes about the damage thing, but Initiative was originally my idea. I was a playtester on Dr.Who, and I was the one who suggested that initiative system, and I was directly thinking of adapting the RC D&D initiative when I suggested it.
[21:22] <+JayLittle> Innovative I'll also give a nod to Ars Magica for having wizards & accompanying characters as well as grogs
[21:22] <@Abstruse> QUESTION <Jadomonkey> Question: Do you play games by the letter of the rules or do you do a lot of houseruling?
[21:22] <+BradElliott> Fair enough, Ken.  :)  I loved the love-letter it was to Tim Powers' work.
[21:23] <+Andrew_Peregrine> We've all had over 30 years to develop/steal the best ideas! :)
[21:23] <+BenRogers> "Rules are made to be broken."
[21:23] <+GeorgeVasilakos> houseruling
[21:23] <+JMThompson_BPI> Not that its relevant to the question :D
[21:23] <+Tim_Dugger> I am a tinker at heart, I am always coming up with options or trying new things out, simply to see if they work or not...
[21:23] <+Rpgpundit> Andrew: precisely. Every single one of us stands on the shoulders of giants.
[21:23] <+JMThompson_BPI> Depends on the game. I play DW as is, but I houserule Pathfinder.
[21:23] <+Eloy-3EG> + BenRogers
[21:23] <+JayLittle> i don't think i've ever played a game as written. but i wouldn't call how i run houserules... just going with the flow and excessive use of Rule Zero
[21:23] <+BradElliott> I think everybody does a bit of 'adjustment' to a given ruleset to fit your own preferences.
[21:23] <+JasonHolmgren> @Jadomonkey, I'm a formalist at heart, and I prefer to play according to the book. ... But then I prefer games that aren't 400 pages long and that have formalized everything.
[21:23] <+Rpgpundit> Very few modern ideas are new, and hardly any of the new ones are good.
[21:23] <+Kenneth_Hite> Jadomonkey Depends on the game. Most games get house-ruled at my table eventually, but some (like DOGS IN THE VINEYARD) don't.
[21:23] <+BenRogers> I want people to come away from my gaming table talking about what a *BLAST* they had - even if I slaughtered them - if the rules get in the way ... BOOOM!
[21:23] <+TRA-Preston> Jadomonkey One or two things always get houseruled, no matter what I play. Ussually its how much EXP is given out (ussually its way too little)
[21:23] <+LynneH> House rules - unless we're playtesting. At that point, you have to do it by the book or you're not helping the designer at all
[21:23] <+DavidFChapman> Yeah, a lot of great stuff came out of playtest for Dr Who.
[21:23] <+Andrew_Peregrine> There will always be a few tweaks to make the game fit your group, but I prefer to stick to the rules unless they just don't work.
[21:23] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I tend to run *all* RPGs "loosey-goosey", even the ones I design. I'm a "story-first" kind of GM and I like to keep things moving swiftly.
[21:23] <+Rpgpundit> Jado: Lots of houseruling here.
[21:23] <+TimKirk> Jadomonkey: I play by the rules, unless something isn't working as intended, or I can see a faster way to get the same results. Except with magic, if the game is good but magic sucks, I'm going to make new magic systems.
[21:24] <+BenRogers> +1 Cynthia
[21:24] <+JasonMHardy> Jadomonkey: I play by the letter of the rules long enough to try to learn the intent and make sure I understand what is supposed to be happening. At that point, a house rule or two tends to creep in. Sooner with RPGs than with board games.
[21:24] <+BradElliott> I'm actually quite fond of a lot of the newest games - I like seeing new ideas on how to implement game-modeling.
[21:24] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Shadowrun is the only exception, actually. I play it pretty much "as written".
[21:24] <+TimKirk> That isn't to say I'm "strict" I'm pretty much like Cynthia up there, using the rules lightly when needed.
[21:24] <+BrentNewhall> I tend to move into straight collaborative storytelling. In my last game, we didn't roll dice for the last half of the gaming session.
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[21:24] <+Kenneth_Hite> JMThompson_BPI Glad to hear it!
[21:24] <+JMThompson_BPI> I dont do a lot with the rules anyway Cynthia... they only come up if they are needed.
[21:24] * @Abstruse high gives CynthiaCelesteMiller for stealing his answer verbatim.
[21:24] <+JamesSutton> By the rules usually, but handwavium or inventium where necessary.
[21:24] <+JasonHolmgren> There's way, way too many games out there with rules in them that no one ever uses, or that never should be used. While people may praise Gary Gygax as a gamer, his rulebooks are bloated with stuff even he never intended to use.
[21:24] <+Rpgpundit> David: Indeed. But I remember driving the C7 guys nuts.
[21:24] <@Abstruse> Errr...high fives...
[21:24] <+BradElliott> Rules are a tool - use them as you will.
[21:25] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I usually houserule ot simplify. I told my Dragonlance group that attacks of oppotunity and all the layers of D&D sub rules were gone on my watch :)
[21:25] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I stole someone's answer? LOL!
[21:25] <+BenRogers> Abstruse, oddly enough, I read it right without your correction. :)
[21:25] <+Ken_Spencer> My playtesters often get on me for playing too fast and loose with my own rules.
[21:25] <@Abstruse> BenRogers: I'm fluent in typoese, so I have the same problem editing sometimes.
[21:25] <+BradElliott> Well, in playtest, you have to USE a rule to actually test it, so....
[21:25] <+Rpgpundit> Jason: there's lots of stuff I put in my games that I never intend to use but I put them there because OTHERS might want to use them. I think Gygax did the same.
[21:25] <+BrentNewhall> My own games I play test pretty straight.
[21:25] <+Rpgpundit> That's not a problem, that's good design.
[21:25] <+TimKirk> If rules don't work for me, I get new rules. Usually, completely new systems--rather than houseruling.
[21:25] <+Rpgpundit> Tight strict rules design is stupid.
[21:25] <+BenRogers> I rely heavily on some friends who are "rules lawyers" to playtest because I tend to "go with the flow" and make the story more important.
[21:25] <+PEGShane> I have to run folks--but thanks for having me! It was a blast participating and reading all your awesome responses. :)
[21:26] <+TimKirk> Later Shane!
[21:26] <~Dan> Thanks for being here, Shane!
[21:26] <+JMThompson_BPI> Later Shane
[21:26] <+LynneH> Night, Shane
[21:26] <~Dan> Don't be a stranger!
[21:26] <+JasonHolmgren> @Rpgpundit, I can't agree that's a good philosophy. If the DESIGNERS don't use the rule, why should you expect the players to use it? Better to default on Rule Zero.
[21:26] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Later, Shane.
[21:26] <+Tim_Dugger> ciao Shane
[21:26] <+Ken_Spencer> Bye Shane
[21:26] <+BenRogers> Later, Shane.  enjoy that warm weather in AZ!
[21:26] <+JasonMHardy> Night Shane!
[21:26] <+Eloy-3EG> Gotta duck out. It's been real. Later
[21:26] <+PEGShane> (And I like to play by the rules because I'm usually *learning* from all you folks.) :)
[21:26] <+BradElliott> BenRogers - that's good playtesting. You have to have people who are absolutely rigorous - or to use JasonHolmgren's term, 'formalist' to truly put your system through its paces. Or so I think.  :)
[21:26] <+Andrew_Peregrine> In their positive mode rules lawyers are a great help. One of my D&D players is great at pointing out the effects of me ignoring any rule but never complains when I do
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[21:26] <+LynneH> Bye, Eloy!
[21:26] <~Dan> Bye, Eloy!
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[21:27] <+BradElliott> See you, Shane & Eloy!
[21:27] <+Andrew_Peregrine> bye
[21:27] <+BenRogers> Brad, abso-effin-lutely.
[21:27] <+JMThompson_BPI> Bye eloy
[21:27] <+Ken_Spencer> Bye Eloy
[21:27] <+Tim_Dugger> bye eloy
[21:27] <+Rpgpundit> Jason: Because there's tons of stuff that may be very fun for a particular group to use.  The Kitchen Sink, or a Toolkit type rules-set is going to give GMs more options, rather than Rule-by-Game-Designer telling them that they have to play exactly the way the designer intended it.
[21:27] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Have a good one, Eloy!
[21:27] <+Kenneth_Hite> Night Shane!
[21:27] <+JasonHolmgren> I prefer the term 'formalist' over 'rules lawyer', because a rules-lawyer will only state the rules that HELP their case, and they omit the ones that HURT them.
[21:27] <+JamesSutton> G'night Shane and Eloy!
[21:27] <+JMThompson_BPI> I guess it really depends on the game, how familiar I am with it. Houserules are bound to come up at some point because no designer can anticipate every situation.
[21:27] <+JasonMHardy> Later Eloy!
[21:27] <+BradElliott> +1 JasonHolmgren
[21:27] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I'm staying in the hopes of outlasting the other Brits! Plus there is still booze in the kitchen
[21:27] <~Dan> You are hardcore, Andrew.
[21:28] <+LynneH> Right, peregrine, is that a challenge? ;)
[21:28] <+BradElliott> I had like two formalists in my original work through of the Weapons of the Gods rules - routinely would tear apart stuff, or point out when things were missing.
[21:28] <+BrettMBernstein> To me, the rules are simply a guide. Use them to start and then when you understand why they exist, adapt them to your needs.
[21:28] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I've got a day off tommorrow LynneH, you cannot defeat me! :)
[21:28] <+TimKirk> MSH is my most heavily house ruled game. Most of those rules are from Magazine's in Dragon, but a few were my own.
[21:28] <+JamesSutton> Oh boy, see what you've started now Andrew?
[21:28] <+Kenneth_Hite> Who runs out of booze? That's like running out of rice. Or water.
[21:28] <+JMThompson_BPI> I have some really good Tequila about 2ft from me, I will share :D
[21:28] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Hey, I'm munching on Fun Dip right now, so I'm all set for another 30 minutes or so. :)
[21:28] <+Rpgpundit> The Pundit will bury you all.
[21:28] <+DavidFChapman> You may well win, Andy, I've got a shop (well, 2 shops) to open in about 5 hours, and need sleep!
[21:28] <+LynneH> Botheration - I have books to edit... I suspect you may triumph
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[21:28] <+JasonHolmgren> @TimKirk, MSH is very much a house-ruling game. =D  But mad props to Jeff Grubb, for showing how that could be fun, and appropriate for the superhero setting.
[21:28] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> +1 to Tim. I houserule the heck out of MSH.
[21:28] <+Tim_Dugger> I like flexible rules, a base mechanic that can be adapted to a variety of situations -- makes it easier that way, I think.. hehe
[21:29] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Theatre lifestyle wins again!
[21:29] <+TimKirk> Indeed. Jason.
[21:29] <@Abstruse> Kenneth_Hite: Heavy drinkers living in Texas in one of the few times during the decade it freezes and who didn't stop at the liquor store on the way home from work like he planned :/
[21:29] <+BradElliott> I absolutely loved MSH FASERIP back in the day - quoted for truth, JasonHolmgren.
[21:29] <+Rpgpundit> Unless the storm takes me down.
[21:29] <+JasonHolmgren> MSH is a good starting point, because it has provisions for failure, success, and screamingly-good success, all vaugely defined. 'When in doubt, roll and shout' and see what happens.
[21:29] <+JMThompson_BPI> I was hoping the schools here would be closed tomorrow. I have some editing I need to get finished this weekend, plus I have my D&D 40th game to run on Saturday. :-)
[21:30] <+JasonHolmgren> Compare this to Gamma World 3rd edition, with its mind-melting rainbow-chart of something like NINE different degrees of success. Oops.
[21:30] <+Rpgpundit> biggest one of the year so far. And I've never seen storms like we have here (not quite cyclones or typhoons or whatever, but damn close).
[21:30] * +JMThompson_BPI lives in NW Louisiana
[21:30] <+Rpgpundit> I do most of my work on the astral plane, so hours become kind of relative
[21:30] <+LynneH> How is the Icec Age going over there in America?
[21:30] <+Rpgpundit> Audience, I demand more questions damn it
[21:30] * +BenRogers saw a mammoth today.
[21:30] <+Kenneth_Hite> Abstruse In Chicago, we learn early to have enough liquor to last all winter.
[21:30] <+TimKirk> I'm working on Spectra, it has ugh slightly more colors--I think. "No and, No, yes, but, yes, yes, and.." as color results.
[21:31] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> It's clear weather here in Kansas. So far.
[21:31] <+BradElliott> LynneH - I seem to be in an island of mild-ish weather here in the Pacific Northwest - counting my blessings.
[21:31] <+Tim_Dugger> my cats started knocking on the door earlier, wanting to be let in...
[21:31] <@Abstruse> Kenneth_Hite: Never been a problem before now. My bourbon supplies are dangerously low, but I've got vodka reserves.
[21:31] <+TRA-Preston> I'm in Arizona, so if i talk about how nice its been I'll probably be murdered by everyone else
[21:31] <~Dan> QUESTION: <Jetrauben> Question: What is your personal opinion of refluffing?
[21:31] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> We had some nasty weather a couple or three weeks ago though.
[21:31] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Back - I miss anything anyone needs from me?
[21:31] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Refluffing?
[21:31] <+JMThompson_BPI> refluffing?
[21:31] <+BradElliott> Refluffing? New one on me. Sounds like a term from porn.
[21:31] <+LynneH> What's refluffing?
[21:31] <+Tim_Dugger> refluffing?
[21:31] <+TRA-Preston> Refluffing? Like Retconning?
[21:31] <+Andrew_Peregrine> ??? too
[21:31] <+BenRogers> the only "fluffing" I'm aware of doesn't take place in RPGs....
[21:31] <+Ken_Spencer> The worst part of this long cold winter is that the dog and boy are not getting enough outside wide them down time.
[21:31] <+TimKirk> It means reskinning something.
[21:31] <+JasonMHardy> Jetrauben: It's a sign your fluffier is not doing an adequate job.
[21:32] <~Dan> <@Abstruse> Basically taking something in the rules and changing the "fluff" part to use it as something else.
[21:32] <+Rpgpundit> I think if we're talking about fluffing, Zak S. would have to answer that one. The rest of us aren't qualified.
[21:32] <+JasonHolmgren> Oh!
[21:32] <+BradElliott> Thank you, Dan!
[21:32] <+TimKirk> I reskin stuff all the time. I used one of my games for Star Wars, so in a way it had refluffing going on..
[21:32] <+BrentNewhall> So, reskinning an orc as a tough pirate?
[21:32] <+DavidFChapman> I'm going to have to call it a night. The pesky day job requires I sleep. I just wanted to say how awesome this has been - I'm honoured and humbled to be in such company, and it's been amazing to chat with you. I rarely get to conventions so never get to meet other cool designers. Thank you all.
[21:32] <+BradElliott> Never heard that one before.
[21:32] <+TimKirk> I've done that too.
[21:32] <+Kenneth_Hite> Jetrauben I've written half a dozen GURPS books. Reskinning is the whole point of what I write.
[21:32] <+BenRogers> Like, chancing "Combat Reflexes" to "Trained Combatant" and re-writing the description?
[21:32] <+JasonHolmgren> Well, as I said earlier, rules endorse a certain setting. I'm all for people applying their own fluff to stuff -- heck, GURPS, FATE, et al. depend on it. ... But only if it's appropriate.
[21:32] <+JMThompson_BPI> Night David, glad you were here.
[21:32] <+Rpgpundit> Cheers, David.
[21:33] <+JamesSutton> G'night David!
[21:33] <+JasonMHardy> I don't think it's an absolute good or bad. Sometimes it will work, sometimes it won't.
[21:33] <+LynneH> Good night, David - hopefully I'll get to meet you in person sometime soon
[21:33] <~Dan> You're welcome, Dave! Please come by any time!
[21:33] <+Ken_Spencer> Night Dave
[21:33] <+BradElliott> Good night, David!
[21:33] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I'm all about player/GM creativity. I've had people use Cartoon Action Hour for all manner of things (including the TV show Dallas). I'm all for it!
[21:33] <+JasonMHardy> Night David!
[21:33] <+JasonHolmgren> For example, I'd think a straight d20 adaptation of Dr.WHO would be terrible.
[21:33] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Night Dave! I claim a bitter victory :)
[21:33] <+SeanPatrickFannon> I think they mean like taking the original Amber Diceless and doing that new thing with it
[21:33] <+Kenneth_Hite> Night, David.
[21:33] <+BradElliott> I'd have to agree, JasonHolmgren. The mechanics would enforce certain behaviors in-game.
[21:33] <+TimKirk> I once used a single creature (stats0 to represent Storm Trooper squads in a
[21:33] <+Rpgpundit> I only come to this chat when I get invited to an interview, but I do enjoy it.  I appreciate that this place exists so that others may soak in my wisdom.
[21:33] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Or my aforementioned reference to DC Heroes, which was refluffed into something with the word Blood in it.
[21:33] <+BenRogers> We talked about "re-skinning" Sixcess for particular settings.  Calling Willpower "Sand" in a western-themed setting, for instance.  We shelved the idea.
[21:33] <+Tim_Dugger> if appropriate, I don't see it as a problem
[21:34] <+DavidFChapman> Cheers all. Please find my social media outlets (Facebook/Twitter/etc) on (Link: and keep in touch!!! G'night!
[21:34] <+LynneH> I'm hoping to reskin the Cogs rules with a different setting, once old tentacle-chops has done with me
[21:34] <+JMThompson_BPI> Sean, I like to pretend that doesnt exist :D
[21:34] <+Ken_Spencer> If the system works for the new setting, go right ahead, but the d20 boom should ahve taught us the dangers of hammer and pick to make the two match.
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[21:34] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I must admit one of my most loathed terms is 'Crunch' and 'Fluff'. It implies setting is unimportant and more complex rules somehow give you 'more game'. Growl
[21:34] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Yeah, I am with you somewhat there, @Andrew, but when in Rome...
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[21:34] <+BradElliott> Nice observation on the framing of the terms, Andrew_Peregrine. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
[21:34] <@Abstruse> To define terms, refluffing or reskinning is when you take the core mechanics for something and change the fluff to re-use it in a different context. Like keeping the core stats for a goblin, but instead calling it an ewok. Or doing so with an entire rules system, so Shadowrun becomes Outlaw Star with no changes to mechanics.
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[21:35] <+Rpgpundit> Well, I ran my famous Legion campaign by reskinning D20 Star Wars Revised. It worked quite well. Of course, at that time ICONS didn't exist yet.
[21:35] <+BenRogers> When I hear "crunch" I think "difficult terrain" and "fluff" makes me think of "a soft, comfy bed".  I like the term "purple text" for descriptive writing, though. :)
[21:35] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Oh yes, that ship has sailed without a doubt. But I still go Grrr
[21:35] <+BradElliott> What, so this is 'Call the rabbit a smeerp'?
[21:35] <+JasonHolmgren> +1 Andrew.  When designing, I'll refer to 'formal' for stuff that has rules and numbers, and 'informal' for the more creative, right-brained stuff.
[21:35] <+Kenneth_Hite> That said, most people (and certainly most publishers) pay me specifically for my own unique brand of fluff, so I'm not sure why you'd buy a book by me and change it to a book by someone else.
[21:35] <+JasonMHardy> I'm with Andrew_Peregrine. I'm not fond of the term, but as SeanPatrickFannon says, sometimes you use it so people know what you're talking about. But I'll say grrr with Andrew.
[21:35] <+Rpgpundit> Ben: If fluff makes you think of a comfy bed, you're clearly very innocent.
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[21:36] <+LynneH> Can people please stop talking about comfy beds, please? Its 3.35am over here ;)
[21:36] <~Dan> QUESTION: <Yog_Sothoth> Q: If you weren't designing pen and paper games for a living, what would you be doing?
[21:36] <+Tim_Dugger> I use "rules" and "flavor text"
[21:36] <+BenRogers> Pundit, well. ;)  I was keeping it "family friendly" since I said "sh!tty weather" earlier and got called down for it. ;)
[21:36] <+JMThompson_BPI> Teaching.
[21:36] <+Rpgpundit> I don't quite make a living on RPGs alone, though its becoming a bigger part of my income each year.
[21:36] <+BradElliott> Uh... there are people who design pen and paper games for a living?!
[21:36] <+JasonMHardy> BenRogers: I don't know if I'd use "purple text" for flavor text, because I don't want to encourage some genre writers to overwrite any more than they already do.
[21:36] <+Kenneth_Hite> Yog_Sothoth Writing in a different, perhaps better-compensated but less fun, field.
[21:36] <+TimKirk> Yog Sothoth: I would be writing novels, which I do as well just slowly.
[21:36] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Designing miniatures games. LOL! No, I'd probably go whole-hog as a freelance graphic designer.
[21:36] <+BrettMBernstein> Got to go. Thanks everyone. Good job, Dan and Abstruse.
[21:36] <+BenRogers> I don't design games for a living. I design them because I *LOVE* them.
[21:36] <+Ken_Spencer> I would probably still be an archaeological field tech, and never see my wife and kid.
[21:36] <+TimKirk> Heh with Brad..not much of a living, anyway
[21:36] <+Andrew_Peregrine> My real job is as a lighting technician in the theatre
[21:36] <~Dan> Bye, Brett! Have a good one!
[21:36] <+Tim_Dugger> telephonic tech support of teleohones....... oh, wait, that IS what I do for a living....
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[21:37] <+LynneH> Tricky, seeing as I gave up research science to become a teacher, then gave up being a teacher to become a games designer...
[21:37] <+JasonMHardy> Writing _something_. It's about all I can do.
[21:37] <+LynneH> Night, Brett
[21:37] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Later, Brett.
[21:37] <+BradElliott> TimKirk - I tried it myself, as some may recall - and like you, yeah, 'Not much of a living' described it well. But that's another story.
[21:37] <+Ken_Spencer> Bye Brett
[21:37] <+GeorgeVasilakos> Illustrating
[21:37] <+JasonMHardy> By Brett.
[21:37] <+JamesSutton> G'night Brett!
[21:37] <+JasonHolmgren> @Yog_Sothoth, I'd be doing art direction on something else. =D
[21:37] <+BradElliott> Bye, Brett!
[21:37] <+SeanPatrickFannon> I've done just about every job you might think of, or at least something related to it, while pursuing this.
[21:37] <+Andrew_Peregrine> bye
[21:37] <+Kenneth_Hite> Night Brett.
[21:37] <+JMThompson_BPI> I want to go into the field.
[21:37] <+Tim_Dugger> nigth Brett
[21:37] <+JMThompson_BPI> Night Brett
[21:38] <+JMThompson_BPI> Well said Ben
[21:38] <+SeanPatrickFannon> But I think if I'd not decided to plunge into the RPG industry, I'd be a very frustrated old hack still trying to make it as a writer/director in Hollywood. That was my original post-West Point plan
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[21:38] <+BradElliott> I think I prefer JasonHolmgren's terms - formal and informal - because there aren't any judgement-framings built into those terms.
[21:38] <+TimKirk> I might be illustrating too, if I could improve my art...l
[21:38] <+BenRogers> I don't write games (or, lately, organizing freelancers to write games) because I get paid for it. I have a day job (two, actually).  I write games because I love the creative outlet and I can't imagine doing anything else.
[21:38] <+SeanPatrickFannon> After I discovered being a Military Academy graduated officer was off target
[21:38] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> +1 Ben
[21:39] <+Kenneth_Hite> BradElliott I'm not sure why we need more words besides "rules" and "setting".
[21:39] <+Tim_Dugger> I use "rules" and "flavor text"
[21:39] <+Ken_Spencer> +1 Kenneth Hite I'm not sure why we need more words besides "rules" and "setting".
[21:39] <+BradElliott> <laughs> You're right, Kenneth_Hite! Overlook the basic terms for fancier ones.
[21:39] <~Dan> A quick note before anyone else leaves: Please let me know (1) if you've enjoyed this, (2) if you think it would be worth doing again, and (3) if you have any suggestions to improve it. :)
[21:39] <+BradElliott> +1 Kenneth_Hite
[21:39] <+JMThompson_BPI> 1) Yes, 2) Yes, 3) No
[21:39] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Going full time as a games writer was an old dream. But I realised recently that as a freelancer I get all the good bits but none of the bad ones. Going full time I'd have to write for things I wasn't especially keen on and do production work I'd rather not :)
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[21:40] <+JasonHolmgren> @Ken, because you can have informal rules. For example, if a lord outranks a peasant, that's still a rule, just not one that means you have to roll dice.
[21:40] <+Ken_Spencer>  1) I have enjoyed this. 2) Yes, do it again. 3) No
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[21:40] <+BrentNewhall> (1) yes (2) yes (3) can't think of anything
[21:40] <+Tim_Dugger> 1) yes 2) yes 3) practice herding cats more often....
[21:40] <+GeorgeVasilakos>  1. Yes 2. Yes. 3. No
[21:40] <+LynneH> Dan - 1) yes, 2) I would like to think so and 3) not in the early hours of the morning :)
[21:40] <+Andrew_Peregrine> +1 on the above!
[21:40] <@Abstruse> QUESTION: <JoshuaMeadows> Q: What is your favourite genre to write for?
[21:40] <~Dan> LynneH: *chuckle*
[21:40] <+TRA-Preston> 1) was fun  2) yes 3) don't listen to the uk people, the time was fine :)
[21:40] <+JasonHolmgren> (1) Thanks for the opportunity! (2) Of course, and (3) you'd have to ask the audience. =D
[21:40] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> 1) I have enjoyed this chat immensely. 2) Absolutely! 3) It's been pretty darn perfect.
[21:40] <+TimKirk> Yes, Yes, No.
[21:40] <+Kenneth_Hite> 1) sure, 2) maybe not for three hours on a weekend, and 3) see 2)
[21:40] <+JMThompson_BPI> I think herding cats would be easier than dealing with the likes of us :D
[21:40] <+Rpgpundit> I'm enjoying it. I'd do it again. I'd like more hardball questions.
[21:41] <+JasonMHardy> 1) Enjoyed it; 2) Would do it again; 3) Only thing I can think of is maybe solicit questions in advance so that the questions for the next one don't repeat the ones here. Other than that, it was great!
[21:41] <+TimKirk> I think its been immense fun, dealing with chaos and babbling.
[21:41] <+Tim_Dugger> JoshuaMeadows: fantasy (quasi-medieval)
[21:41] <+BenRogers> 1) Really enjoyed it.  2) Would love to do it again.  3) At first I was going to suggest fewer participants - but I really like the way the chatter mingles with the questions and answers.
[21:41] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I'd suggest maybe having people grouped by country (say, all the Brits together), although I work best on New York time
[21:41] <+JMThompson_BPI> Favorite genre to write: Alternate history.
[21:41] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Happy to come back, maybe a them for next time around
[21:41] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Favorite genre, eh? Probably horror, either slasher-based or Lovecraftian.
[21:41] <+Kenneth_Hite> Like RPGpundit I'd like to have seen more questions, and more questions about design than biz stuff.
[21:41] <+Ken_Spencer> Pulp, its wide open and more a mode or style than a single genre, but I love high action and adventure.
[21:41] <@Abstruse> JMThompson_BPI: I have two cats and I run a podcast where we schedule game designers weekly to record. The cats are by far easier :p
[21:41] <+BradElliott> 1) Enjoyed it  2) would do it again  3) definitely has to finish his current project to have more to say rather than just talk about my old stuff!
[21:41] <+BrentNewhall> Mecha, the subject of my first system.
[21:41] <+JamesSutton> 1) Yes 2) Yes 3) No
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[21:41] <+Rpgpundit> Joshua: I actually have trouble sticking to one genre. There are some genres I know I'd be no good at doing; but on the other hand even though I know there is demand for me doing supplements to some of my games I often find myself distracted by the next genre I want to approach.
[21:41] <+LynneH> It's easier to say the ones I'm not so comfortable writing for - hard sci-fi and rules-heavy systems
[21:41] <+Kenneth_Hite> JoshuaMeadows Cthulhu Mythos horror. But you knew that.
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[21:42] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Supers and Fantasy here. The two things I'm most known for, for a reason I guess
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[21:42] <+BenRogers> Sci-fantasy with a blend of horror.  Mingle Star Wars and Cthulhu and I'd be in a happy place.
[21:42] <+JMThompson_BPI> Ken: I am shocked and amazed :D
[21:42] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I've tended to write a lot of Victorian/Steampunk but anything a little different is good for me.
[21:42] <+JasonMHardy> I love fantasy first, and have strong affection for noir. Hence me being where I am.
[21:42] <+JasonHolmgren> @JoshuaMeadows: I'd go with historical, because I love research.
[21:42] <+BradElliott> Genre? I love to take genres and try to create coherent settings out of them, like I did with WotG. May have to do it again sometime.  :)
[21:42] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I'm with you on the "noir" thing, Jason! LOVE that stuff!
[21:42] <+SeanPatrickFannon> By the way, in case anyone's paying attention, I am actually designing a new superhero genre rules system from the ground up. There, my first public announcement of it.
[21:42] <+BradElliott> Done with Wuxia, but love many others.
[21:42] <+JMThompson_BPI> Jason: I figure its the best place to use my degree :D
[21:42] <@Abstruse> SeanPatrickFannon: Second :p
[21:43] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Swashbuckling was a particular favourite for me too. God I miss 7th Sea
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[21:43] <+Rpgpundit> Sean: how is it going to be different from ICONS?
[21:43] <+BradElliott> Keep us posted, SeanPatrickFannon?
[21:43] <+TimKirk> My favorite genre is superheroes, then fantasy, sci fi, westerns, horror, wuxia fantasy, space opera, and more tied for second.
[21:43] <+JasonHolmgren> I thought 7th Sea was still in print/
[21:43] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Awesome, Sean! That excites me!
[21:43] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Anyone interested in following along, ping me on FB and I will add you to the Secret FB Page for it. It's called "Handfuls of Dice."
[21:43] <+BradElliott> Noir is awesome.
[21:44] <+Andrew_Peregrine> You can still get it, but they arn't making more. So I don't get to write for it anymore :( Although I did do a lot of post publication pdfs
[21:44] <+JMThompson_BPI> I love superhero games too,but have never written one... maybe this game of Seans will give me the opportunity :D
[21:44] <+Rpgpundit> Brett's gone now, but Dark Streets is one of the best Noir RPGs ever.
[21:44] <@Abstruse> Sean teased a little about it when he was on my podcast (Link:
[21:44] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Not going to spam the chat here about it, but lets just say I am taking some Old School "fun stuff" and adding in some New School design ideas.
[21:44] <+BenRogers> Andrew Peregrine: 7th Sea was an influence in making ElfWood - our swashbuckling fantasy setting.
[21:44] * +JMThompson_BPI is sad that Abstruse has never invited him on his show :(
[21:44] <+SeanPatrickFannon> @Abstruse, I abandoned that path. This is all-new
[21:44] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Its still my favourite game of all time.
[21:45] <@Abstruse> JMThompson_BPI: I'm working my way through my rolodex! We're scheduling over a month out at this point, give me time :(
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[21:45] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I'm sold, Sean. Totally sold.
[21:45] * +LynneH imagines Andrew as a pirate
[21:45] <~Dan> QUESTION: <Jadomonkey> If there's time for anymore questions: Are there any systems/mechanics that really rub you the wrong way?
[21:45] <@Abstruse> SeanPatrickFannon: Ah. Well, if you want to know what Sean WAS working on, listen to my podcast ^_^;;
[21:45] <+SeanPatrickFannon> (BTW, the roll-keep ideas from L5R and 7th Sea are something I am stealing)
[21:45] <+Rpgpundit> I've got lots of time for questions
[21:45] <+BenRogers> I don't like anything that uses a single die for resolution.
[21:45] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Huzzah SeanPatrickFannon
[21:45] <+TimKirk> Yes. A few games do.
[21:46] <+JasonHolmgren> @Jadomonkey, I dunno if I can answer that with so many other designers in the room. *:)
[21:46] <+JasonMHardy> Jadomonkey: THAC0
[21:46] <+LynneH> Anything system where the rules do their utmost to get in the way of storytelling
[21:46] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Anything that uses % dice
[21:46] <+TRA-Preston> JadoMonkey I really hate the magic systems in anything D&D or D&D related
[21:46] <+Rpgpundit> Jado:Ignoring Storygames, which aren't RPGs, within the RPG boundaries I don't care at all for point-buy character creation, or most dice-pool systems.
[21:46] <+SeanPatrickFannon> I've always hated that, for not entirely rational reasons
[21:46] <+BradElliott> I'm off. Great time, everybody! Dan - hope you do more of these.
[21:46] <+BrentNewhall> There are no bad mechanics, only bad applications of mechanics.
[21:46] <+Tim_Dugger> Jadomonkey: I would have to say alignment rules that force your character to act in certain ways...
[21:46] <~Dan> I think I may, Brad!
[21:46] <+JasonHolmgren> I don't like game systems that endorse inappropriate behavior.
[21:46] <~Dan> Thanks for coming!
[21:46] <+Andrew_Peregrine> The mechanic I loathe is 'unspend hero/fate/karma points become your experience points. It encourages you to avoid doing amazing things so you can get a better character.
[21:46] <+LynneH> Night, Brad
[21:46] <+JamesSutton> G'night Brad!
[21:46] <+TimKirk> No murderhobos for Jason
[21:46] <+JasonHolmgren> If any of you have Knights of the dinner table #1, there's a story that Jolly adapted from a rant I told him once. It's genius.
[21:46] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Amen to that, Andrew
[21:46] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> There are systems and mechanics that aren't for me, but none that annoy me.
[21:46] <+Tim_Dugger> +1 JasonHolmgren
[21:47] <+BradElliott> Thank you one and all.
[21:47] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Night Brad
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[21:47] <+Ken_Spencer> Zero to hero arcs. I don't have time for that much investment to get the character I want. Awesome and competent now, not in three years of play time.
[21:47] <+JasonHolmgren> +1 Andrew -- it was a karma point story! :D
[21:47] <+Rpgpundit> I don't agree, Brent: there are definitely mechanics that are worse than others.
[21:47] <+Kenneth_Hite> Jadomonkey: Table lookups as conflict resolution.
[21:47] <~Dan> Hmmm... So if I do more of these, the next question becomes: How often?
[21:47] <+TimKirk> I don't mind tables, as long as its quick (MSH)
[21:47] <+Rpgpundit> For starters, any mechanic who's probabilities are flawed.
[21:47] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Once a month would be about right, or maybe once a quarter if that's too much
[21:47] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Maybe every 3-6 months.
[21:47] <+JMThompson_BPI> how often?
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[21:47] <+TimKirk> 3-6 months is good.
[21:47] <+Kenneth_Hite> Night, Brad!
[21:47] <+TRA-Preston> 6 months i think, don't want them too often or they will lose their magic
[21:48] <+JasonMHardy> I would say quarterly.
[21:48] <+Andrew_Peregrine> 3-6 sounds a good call
[21:48] <+Ken_Spencer> Quarterly would be best.
[21:48] <+JasonHolmgren> 6 to 12 months, I'd say. Keep up the individual authors!
[21:48] <@Abstruse> Dan: Quarterly. Rare enough they're still special, but often enough that people who can't make it don't feel too put out.
[21:48] <+LynneH> Every couple of months. Quarterly is a good suggestion, though
[21:48] <+JamesSutton> Quarterly
[21:48] <~Dan> Yeah... Quarterly sounds good.
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[21:48] <+BenRogers> NIGHTLY! ...  Oh, wait...
[21:48] <+Rpgpundit> For example, where someone with 1 rank in a skill actually has a better chance of success than someone with 4 ranks, because of some kind of funky dice-pool thing
[21:48] <+JasonHolmgren> I'd worry we'd use all our good material. =D
[21:48] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> LOL @ Ben
[21:48] <+JMThompson_BPI> I probably missed a question, but yes... thats good :D
[21:48] <+SeanPatrickFannon> @Jadomokey, straight percentile driven games always look at little *too* mathy to me, it's just a thing
[21:48] <+JMThompson_BPI> Oh these things LOL
[21:49] <+Kenneth_Hite> TimKirk I memorized MSH, so I don't count that. :^)
[21:49] <+JasonHolmgren> I don't like games where people confuse quality with quantity.
[21:49] <@Abstruse> And for the record, you guys are always welcome to come to #RPGnet and just hang out with fans. We're a friendly bunch and the conversations are always fun.
[21:49] <+JasonHolmgren> For example, d20's skill rank system.
[21:49] <+BenRogers> (Based on Pundit's preferences, I think his Sixcess review is going to *slaughter* us...) ;)
[21:49] <+TimKirk> Indeed.
[21:49] <~Dan> What Abstruse said. We love having game designers hang out with us. :)
[21:49] <+Tim_Dugger> Dan is trying to collect us all
[21:49] <+Tim_Dugger> we are like pokemon to him
[21:49] <+JasonHolmgren> For YEARS, when I would ask, 'do you have Move silently skill', one player woud respond 'yes', even though we were 15th level and they had 1 rank in it. To them, they 'had it'.
[21:49] <+TimKirk> They always make me look tiny :D
[21:49] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Mechanics that try to cover too much, like Armour class in D&D. Making an 14th level fighter in leather armour easier to land a blow on than a 3rd level fighter in platemail.
[21:49] <+Rpgpundit> Ben: I have to say that unfortunately, you picked the worst of all possible worlds in Sixcess: Dice pools with both variable difficulty AND counting successes.
[21:49] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> I really need to find the time to chat more often.
[21:50] <+JasonHolmgren> There's lots of games with meaningless numbers out there.
[21:50] <+LynneH> Baggsy Naughty Squirtle
[21:50] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Not hard - we are still a fairly small crowd of people. Not many insane enough to do this for even half-a-living. :-D
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[21:50] <+JMThompson_BPI> Mine tell me exactly what the rank in the skill is , and we work according.
[21:50] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Rpgpundit - You are going to *despise* "Handfuls of Dice. Heh.
[21:50] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I want the Snorlax
[21:50] <+JasonMHardy> Oh, and alignment. Can't recall ever seeing that done right.
[21:50] <+GeorgeVasilakos> i gotta get going myself - anyone have any questions for me before I leave?
[21:51] <+JasonHolmgren> @JMThompson_BPI, your players know math. An RPG should be friendly. Otherwise, you're reducing your pool to 'only people good at math'.
[21:51] <+LynneH> Night, George
[21:51] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Okay, yeah, I'm with you on alignment, Jason. I've always seen it as pointless and stifling.
[21:51] <+JamesSutton> G'night George
[21:51] <~Dan> None here, George! Thanks for coming by!
[21:51] <+TimKirk> Goodnight George!
[21:51] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Hey, GeorgeVasilakos, I got one - how's it hangin'?
[21:51] <@Abstruse> I loathe roll-under. It's counter to everything fun about gaming. I never want to look down at the die and say, "Yes! I rolled a one!!"
[21:51] <+Tim_Dugger> night George
[21:51] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I think alignment can work, as long as it is used as a convenient hanger for morality rather than a cast iron set of beliefs
[21:51] <+SeanPatrickFannon> ;-) Good seeing you, George
[21:51] <+GeorgeVasilakos> heh
[21:51] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Bye, George!
[21:51] <+Ken_Spencer> See you George!
[21:51] <+Rpgpundit> Sean: I would guess just from the name I wouldn't care for it. "Despise" might be strong. The real test of a supers rpg is the Batman v. Superman dilemma.
[21:51] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Bye George!
[21:51] <+JasonHolmgren> +1 Abstruse.  Roll-under has largely disappeared for that reason.
[21:51] <+TimKirk> Andrew: That's where I am.
[21:52] <@Abstruse> QUESTION: <Abstruse> Where do you see the industry going and how do you think it will change in the next few years?
[21:52] <+JMThompson_BPI> I guess the definition of "friendly" means different things to different people. Which is not bad at all.
[21:52] <+JasonHolmgren> @Abstruse: simpler and faster.
[21:52] <+Rpgpundit> You guys should see how I did alignment in Arrows of Indra; there are ways to make it extremely relevant and interesting, rather than stifling.
[21:52] <+BrentNewhall> More fragmented.
[21:52] <+LynneH> If we knew that, we could all be millionaires in a few years time ;)
[21:52] <+Kenneth_Hite> Night, George!
[21:52] <+TimKirk> Lots of more electronics, lots of smaller games/fandoms
[21:52] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Rpgpundit - then you might well fall in love with HoD, because that's one of the prime design goals, to make that work.
[21:52] <+LynneH> Well, maybe not millionaires...
[21:52] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I'd hate to predict, but it will definatly change.
[21:52] <+TRA-Preston> I think I need to leave and get some food. It was lots of fun everybody.
[21:52] <+Rpgpundit> abtruse: It depends mainly on whether D&D Next ends up being successful or not; which in turn depends largely on just how much Mike Mearls listens to me.
[21:53] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Lots more crowndfunding and digital experimentations, is what I foresee.
[21:53] <+LynneH> Night, TRA
[21:53] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I think digial media will grow but we will still be making books.
[21:53] <+JMThompson_BPI> Night Preston
[21:53] <~Dan> Bye, Preston! Have a good one!
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[21:53] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Night LynneH ! Hopefully catch you soon!
[21:53] <+JamesSutton> G'night Sean, Lynne!
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[21:53] <+LynneH> I'm not going anywhere
[21:53] <+JasonHolmgren> There will always be a market for 'grognard' games with math in three-orders-of-magnitude, but the more successful games will be the ones that have strong appeal.
[21:53] <+Ken_Spencer> We may have to get used to living in a world where there is no front runner game, and a mad scramble for audience amongst the smaller IPs.
[21:53] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Abstruse - Lots of small operations, fan-driven houses, creator-owned awesomeness, and more integration with tech tools while still hewing close to the tabletop gathering
[21:53] <+GeorgeVasilakos> We will see lots of newer product - incorporating more things into the 'game' - like tech and toys. The 'standard' RPG needs something more tangible to bring in the new boardgamers that have given the hobby new blood.
[21:53] <+JMThompson_BPI> I dont seen the end of the printed book in my lifetime.
[21:53] <+Tim_Dugger> the general trend, over the last 10 years or so has been towards smaller (which can sometimes mean simpler) games, I think that trend is leveling out, but it can always go in either direction (especially for outliers...)
[21:53] <+JasonMHardy> I think growth is possible, but it needs to be based on showing what's good about RPGs and finding tools to amplify that.
[21:53] <+TimKirk> Indeed.
[21:54] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Ah, LynneH, thats me not reading properly!
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[21:54] <+JamesSutton> My bad....
[21:54] <+LynneH> Dammit, man, you threw down the gauntlet!
[21:54] <+Kenneth_Hite> +1 SeanPatrickFannon modulo D&D NEXT performance, of course.
[21:54] <+JasonHolmgren> I'll echo LynneH's statement that we don't really know. For example, a My Little Pony game would STILL sell a gazillion copies, even it had 500 pages of rules like Dresden Files.
[21:54] <+Rpgpundit> If D&D fails to return to its natural place as the Vanguard of the industry, its going to go very badly for the Industry as a whole.  Of course, as I said before, hobby and industry are two different things.
[21:54] <+JasonMHardy> I would be more specific, except I'm not smart enough.
[21:54] <+JamesSutton> Hi Lynne!
[21:54] <+Kenneth_Hite> Night LynneH
[21:54] <+GeorgeVasilakos> Print will be the way to get the people in initially then keep them coming back with PDFs
[21:54] <+JamesSutton> Great you are still here!
[21:54] <+JamesSutton> :)
[21:54] <+TimKirk> Night LynneH
[21:54] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I think we need to find a way to expose more people ot gaming rather than trying to sell to the already converted
[21:54] <+Kenneth_Hite> I blame Andrew.
[21:54] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Rpgpundit, cannot agree with you at all there
[21:55] <@Abstruse> Related, do you think that the exposure through shows like Wil Wheaton's Tabletop, the Community D&D episode, the Penny Arcade Acquisitions Incorporated games, Brian Posehn's Nerd Poker podcast, etc. growing the hobby?
[21:55] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I shall still win, possibly
[21:55] <+LynneH> Ken, it's always good to blame Andrew
[21:55] <+JMThompson_BPI> I think licensed properties can help with that, but maybe not to the levels we need.
[21:55] <+Rpgpundit> about what, Sean?
[21:55] <@Abstruse> Or is it just preaching to the choir?
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[21:55] <+GeorgeVasilakos> yes it grows the hobby - i see it every day in my game store
[21:55] <+JasonHolmgren> @Andrew, the way to expose people more is to make the games more accessible and friendly. Again, i'll repeat that I hear people who are perfectly willing to wrap their brains around byzantine MMOs who are 'afraid' of tabletop RPGs. Something is wrong, there.
[21:55] * +Andrew_Peregrine cries in a corner
[21:55] <+Andrew_Peregrine> :)
[21:55] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Between Pathfinder and Everybody Else, I don't see any Great and Terrible Flushing for us, even if Next doesn't sing to the heavens
[21:55] <+Tim_Dugger> Andrew_Peregrine: you are getting sleepy... your eyelids are getting heavy....
[21:55] <+JamesSutton> It's uncommon knowledge that Andrew, when read backwards, spells culpable.
[21:55] <+JMThompson_BPI> Paizo is fairly strong in their market.
[21:56] *** Dan sets mode +v BenRogers
[21:56] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Things like that create exposure for games and it's hard for me *not* to thgink that it's helping the industry in significant ways.
[21:56] <+JasonMHardy> Abstruse: I think there's some growth possibilities there. Not huge, but such things build more positive perceptions, which doesn't hurt.
[21:56] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I think people just need the oppotunity to play them. More gaming clubs perhaps or an industry wide effort to advertise in mainstream media. Perhaps conventions designed to introduce new people
[21:56] <+Rpgpundit> Jason: I may be wrong but even very byzantine MMOs don't require you read 3 260-page rulebooks just to start playing.
[21:56] <+GeorgeVasilakos> nite all!
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[21:56] <+LynneH> I've been invited to run game demos at a local craft fair just to try and reach a different audience
[21:56] <+JasonHolmgren> +1 RPGpundit.  Hence, 'simpler and faster'. =D
[21:56] <+Andrew_Peregrine> LOl
[21:57] <+BrentNewhall> I'll make a wild prediction: online video gaming (via Google+ Hangouts and such) will see a huge surge, as it becomes a way for those MMO gamers to play tabletop RPGs.
[21:57] <+JMThompson_BPI> Night George
[21:57] <+Rpgpundit> The problem is the hobby has for a long time rewarded the fanatic: the obsessive collector of pretty books, the obsessive rules-devourer who uses the rules to "char-op".
[21:57] <+BenRogers> Lynne: Craft fairs?  Hmmm... I'd be interested in knowing how that goes....
[21:57] <+LynneH> Night, George
[21:57] <+LynneH> Me, too, Ben, which is why I can't say no ;)
[21:57] <+BenRogers> We ran Sixcess with a 75 year old grandma who had never gamed before in her life.  She picked it up in about 30 minutes and had a blast.
[21:57] <+JasonHolmgren> +1 BrentNewhall, I'd second that.  I've yet to see a good 3rd party tool for RPGs. The few that stand up tallest have a strong d20 bias.
[21:57] <+BrentNewhall> Yeah, I'll be trying to run RPGs and board games at a local Maker Faire.
[21:58] <+Andrew_Peregrine> We wondered about doing 'gothcentric' games like Vampire at Whitby. I also remember LynneH doing Cogs at a Steampunk weekend
[21:58] <+SeanPatrickFannon> I *want* online tabletops to be awesome, but I can never seem to find the time myself to get into them as I wish to. I also greatly covet my "at the table" time with people here in my "gaming pub."
[21:58] <+BrentNewhall> JasonHolmgren: Let me demo Hangouts with DiceStream and the Hangout Toolbox for you some time. :-)
[21:58] <+LynneH> I did do Cogs at a Steampunk weekend. In fact, there's now a gaming stream at said weekend
[21:58] <+TimKirk> We need custo  soundboards for gaming tablets.
[21:58] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I did hear a good idea of using the 'tupperware party' model. You have someone come over to run a game for you for the evening and they have copies of the books you can buy should you want to
[21:59] <+JMThompson_BPI> Im the same way Sean, I have 3-4 games going on a month at the table.
[21:59] <+Andrew_Peregrine> LynneH thats excellent. I keep meaning to revisit asylum but never quite get organised
[21:59] <@Abstruse> One last question from me...What is your favorite thing about working in the tabletop gaming industry?
[21:59] <+Ken_Spencer> Andrew Great idea, gaming party night.
[21:59] <+LynneH> Interesting idea
[21:59] <+SeanPatrickFannon> I've also been concerned about the inconsistency of the technology to deliver a stable experience. Too much dependency on the networks not dropping people or otherwise futzing the experience up
[21:59] <+Rpgpundit> Abtruse: Revenge.
[21:59] <+LynneH> Abstruse - the people
[21:59] <+JasonMHardy> That my job is writing stuff for games.
[21:59] <+BrentNewhall> Intelligent people engaged in reasoned debate.
[22:00] <+JasonHolmgren> @Abstruse -- it's working with my idols, like Carl Critchlow, Matt Howarth, David Lillie... =D
[22:00] <+JMThompson_BPI> My favorite thing is getting to meet all the people that I had been fans of my entire life and now getting to be a peer with them.
[22:00] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I beleive it was Laura Skarka's idea but I'll take credit :)
[22:00] <+SeanPatrickFannon> I don't have to wear pants when I go to work.
[22:00] <+Kenneth_Hite> Abstruse: Pants optional.
[22:00] <+LynneH> I've had the pleasure of meeting and working with some wonderful, gifted, and amazing people because of the industry
[22:00] <@Abstruse> Kenneth_Hite: TMI, dude. TMI.
[22:00] <+TimKirk> Hopefully better internet will be something in the states---other countries have it already. Which should help with the dropped stuff
[22:00] <+SeanPatrickFannon> Kenneth_Hite - jinx!
[22:00] <+JMThompson_BPI> Well the whole pants optional thing is pretty cool :D
[22:00] <+Andrew_Peregrine> I love seeing what other people have done with my stuff, how they've taken something and run with it
[22:00] * +LynneH tries not to laugh at Americans using the word "pants"
[22:01] <+JasonHolmgren> Trousers optional. ;)
[22:01] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Its also pretty damn awesome to get to write something and be part of one of our favourite games
[22:01] <+Ken_Spencer> The people I work with, colleagues who I barely know being friendly and helpful, and the fans. Plus, I get to do something I love and someone pays me to do it.  A rare thing in life.
[22:01] <+Kenneth_Hite> Abstruse: Okay -- I'm measurably contributing to people's fun. Beats mapping insurance networks, which is what I was doing before.
[22:01] <+SeanPatrickFannon> I am mightily charged up by the excitement and joy others get from what I've given them to play with. That is a high nothing else can touch
[22:01] <+JMThompson_BPI> We cant help it if you British have done funny things to our language :D
[22:01] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Thats fighting talk!
[22:01] <+Kenneth_Hite> Also, getting paid to type the word "Romulan" was pretty neat.
[22:01] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> My favorite thing is the camaraderie among designers/publishers. So, yeah, it's the people. Plus, the notion of taking *nothing* (a blank page) and turning it into a game for others to enjoy is an amazing rush.
[22:01] <+BrentNewhall> Ha
[22:01] <+SeanPatrickFannon> "I've got your book on my shelf, and I really love it!" Yeah, that's manna.
[22:02] <+LynneH> Our version of suspenders is better than yours ;)
[22:02] <+Andrew_Peregrine> +1 Kenneth_Hite and I'll raise you 'TARDIS' :)
[22:02] <+TimKirk> My favorite thing is writing. So..;D
[22:02] * +SeanPatrickFannon is currently not wearing pants, as it turns out.
[22:02] <+Andrew_Peregrine> +1 LynneH
[22:02] <+Kenneth_Hite> Lookit that -- it's 10:01 Central. Time for me to go pester the cat. Thanks for having me, all.
[22:02] <+JamesSutton> o.O
[22:02] <+JasonHolmgren> okay, when people are taking off their pants, that's a cue for me to leave.
[22:02] <~Dan> Thanks for coming, Kenneth!
[22:02] <+JMThompson_BPI> LAter Ken. Have a good one.
[22:02] <+SeanPatrickFannon> And on that note!
[22:02] <+LynneH> Night, Ken - a pleasure, as always
[22:02] <+JasonHolmgren> thanks for the chat, everyone.
[22:02] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Bye Ken!
[22:02] <+JasonMHardy> I'm wearing three pairs of pants, just to help make things average out okay.
[22:02] <+Ken_Spencer> Night Kenneth
[22:02] <+SeanPatrickFannon> It was great, as always, Ken!
[22:02] <+TimKirk> Goodnight all!
[22:03] <+Rpgpundit> Quitters.
[22:03] <+TimKirk> Who are leaving...
[22:03] <+ChrisRutkowsky> Hey I just got back an you guys are still on!
[22:03] <+JMThompson_BPI> I think I have a book on my shelf by nearly everyone that was in here tonight.
[22:03] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Later, Ken.
[22:03] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Not sleepy yet LynneH?
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[22:03] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Well, gang, it's been fun, but I really need to get off the computer for a while, as I'm recovering from being ill and I'm feeling a bit drained. Thanks for inviting me to this amazing shindig. It's very humbling. :)
[22:03] <+LynneH> Nice try, Andrew_Peregrine
[22:03] <~Dan> Thanks for coming, Cynthia! :)
[22:03] <+BenRogers> Cynthia, talk to you tomorrow?
[22:03] <+TimKirk> Stay Well Cynthia
[22:03] <+Andrew_Peregrine> :)
[22:03] <+SeanPatrickFannon> As it turns out, I need to go as well - still some things to handle across the many boards I have in play, so to speak.
[22:03] <+JMThompson_BPI> Night Cynthia, hope you recover well.
[22:03] <+Ken_Spencer> Bye Cynthia, feel better soon.
[22:03] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Absolutely, Ben. :)
[22:03] <+ChrisRutkowsky> Bye Cynthia!
[22:03] <+JamesSutton> G'night Cynthia. Get well soon.
[22:03] <+LynneH> Night Cynthia. I hope you feel better soon
[22:03] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Bye Cynthia
[22:03] <+BenRogers> Nighters, my friend.
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[22:03] <~Dan> Actually, I need to wrap things up on my end, but I'll have the log posted shortly!
[22:03] <+CynthiaCelesteMiller> Thanks, all. 'Night!
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[22:04] <~Dan> Please feel free to stay and chat as long as you like, here or in #rpgnet!
[22:04] <+SeanPatrickFannon> So I shall also bid my Good Nights, and remind you all - if you are interested in following along with the Handfuls of Dice development, let me know!
[22:04] <+JasonMHardy> Later Cynthia! Good chatting with you!
[22:04] <+Andrew_Peregrine> But Dan, if you leave Lynne and I draw!
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[22:04] <+LynneH> Night, Sean
[22:04] * ~Dan chuckles
[22:04] <+ChrisRutkowsky> Okay then, glad I made it back to say goodbye to folks then!
[22:04] <+Tim_Dugger> Sean -- have already pinged you on FB
[22:04] <+Andrew_Peregrine> Night Sean too
[22:04] <+JamesSutton> G'night Sean!
[22:04] <+BrentNewhall> Great chat, Dan! Well done!
[22:04] <@Abstruse> I'd like to thank you all for joining us tonight. I didn't realize I'd be working until I joined the room, so thank you all for making it so easy on me, both guests and attendees.
[22:04] <+Rpgpundit> So who's staying for the Afterhours?
[22:04] <+LynneH> the Brits - it's traditional ;)
[22:05] <~Dan> Yes, thank you VERY much for your help, Abstruse.
[22:05] <+Rpgpundit> When we can cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war
[22:05] <+Andrew_Peregrine> So the party is moving into the kitchen?
[22:05] <+JMThompson_BPI> I can stay for a bit longer, but I have to go warp minds in the morning and try to teach them to think.
[22:05] <+BrentNewhall> I'll keep the chat window open; I have laundry in the machine.
[22:05] <+JamesSutton> Or the basement.
[22:05] <~Dan> Kurt was going to help but couldn't make it.
[22:05] <+LynneH> Thank you for having us, Dan, Abstruse
[22:05] * +SeanPatrickFannon staggers over to the bar, right next to his desk, for more nummy booz-ahol
[22:05] *** SeanPatrickFannon has quit IRC: Disintegrated: (Link: ajax IRC Client
[22:05] * +Tim_Dugger reaches for the nectar of the gods.... Mountain Dew...
[22:05] <@Abstruse> Dan: I would've said no if I wasn't honored for the opportunity. Thanks for "asking" me :p
[22:05] <+Ken_Spencer> Its late for me. Time to read the boy a bed time story. Thanks for having me along with so many people whose body of work is much greater than mine.
[22:06] <+JamesSutton> I love the way everyone "disintegrates" when they leave chat.
[22:06] <+LynneH> Night, Ken
[22:06] * +BenRogers sips peppermint tea, sweetened with stevia, over ice -- out of a mason jar. :)
[22:06] <~Dan> Abstruse: Certainly. :)

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